EPThe is very punishing with Kalista though, you are dead on pull before you can react from like level 4 on
[Patch 4.21] Rek'Sai General Discussion - Page 134
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
he is very punishing with Kalista though, you are dead on pull before you can react from like level 4 on | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On January 12 2015 06:46 Slusher wrote: Blitz can only win lane thru his opponents errors, once he's ahead it might seem like he's strong because he snowballs in a ridiculous way for a support but he's one of the worst heroes in the game overall he is very punishing with Kalista though, you are dead on pull before you can react from like level 4 on Do you want to say that every skillshot that hits, hits only because of a mistake? Because otherwise your claim makes no sense. And if you really want to say that you are obviously wrong. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I feel like it is easier to avoid the first grab attempt than it is for blitz to get the first grab attempt and it can swing the lane pretty hard for one skill usage if it is punished correctly. idk thats just the impression I get after spamming Blitz games this pre season, I didn't think he was great before and I think he is worse now (and this is with a winning record) like I said his strength is often misjudged because of how strong he is when he does secure first blood on to his adc, he can do all of the annoying shit like running at you to camping mid that makes him seem like a monster, but in a league with 3 ward limits visible pinks and nor oracles it's really hard for him to do anything without that lead. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On January 12 2015 06:54 nafta wrote: Ya but vayne has tumble.If you can't tumble a blitz hook you either have too high ping and lost a 50/50 or you have bad reaction time. Sure, I agree on that. I'm not claiming that no hook ever hits because of mistakes. But to claim that every hook hits because of a mistake is a bit too much. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 12 2015 06:44 nafta wrote: That isn't counterpicking yourself.Vayne/janna should beat blitz/kalista. No, it should not. Janna is weak against blitz because she can't peel his hooks, which means that he can get a lot of pressure by forcing himself forward in lane and zoning. You're faced with two options. Either back off, or auto harass and try to dodge the hooks/knockup. His level 1 stats are strong enough that he can walk into lane and fight immediately in the middle of creeps with little ability for janna to respond. Vayne has little burst and so loses to Kalista in open fights. Kalista's mobility negates Janna's primary defense which means that once a lane goes badly once it goes badly forever. Level 1 fight went like this. Blitz walked around creeps while I was auto'ing him and E'd vayne -> Kalista killed her. They kited me the entire way back to tower, killed me too. I was unable to apply pressure to Kalista because of Blitz zone and because her auto attack dash makes it easy for her to auto creeps and move into range or auto you and move out of your attack range. Kalista started E, which is probably the strongest level 1 steroid in the game, giving 20+60% bonus damage to the first auto attack and 10+20% damage to subsequent auto attacks. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Also janna is good vs blitz if you play it well. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 12 2015 06:59 Goumindong wrote: No, it should not. Janna is weak against blitz because she can't peel his hooks, which means that he can get a lot of pressure by forcing himself forward in lane and zoning. You're faced with two options. Either back off, or auto harass and try to dodge the hooks/knockup. His level 1 stats are strong enough that he can walk into lane and fight immediately in the middle of creeps with little ability for janna to respond. Vayne has little burst and so loses to Kalista in open fights. Kalista's mobility negates Janna's primary defense which means that once a lane goes badly once it goes badly forever. Level 1 fight went like this. Blitz walked around creeps while I was auto'ing him and E'd vayne -> Kalista killed her. They kited me the entire way back to tower, killed me too. I was unable to apply pressure to Kalista because of Blitz zone and because her auto attack dash makes it easy for her to auto creeps and move into range or auto you and move out of your attack range. Kalista started E, which is probably the strongest level 1 steroid in the game, giving 20+60% bonus damage to the first auto attack and 10+20% damage to subsequent auto attacks. Janna wrecks Blitz. She's faster than you, you and Kalista don't have damage to kill her early levels and if she runs ignite, she and Vayne will just dump both Kalista and Blitz. But ofc, if Janna starts coin and exhaust, then probably Blitz has a shot there. Even then i'm pretty sure that Janna has an edge. | ||
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 12 2015 07:00 nafta wrote: The enemy blitz walks up as a melee champion to vayne in a creep wave and you lose the trade.That means you guys played it like garbage nothing else.Nothing more to add. No. It means that there isn't really anything that can be done in that lane. There is no way to play it because vayne loses any trade with Kalista and because Janna can't pressure her (or blitz) without being in a easy hook position. I mean sure you could say that Vayne could have kited blitz through creeps except that well, she was. She isn't fast enough without boots or red or attack speed to do that and blitz is tanky enough in the early game to not have to worry about the damage (50+ armor, 600+ HP at level 1 plus the mana shield plus pots) and you cannot kite both Kalista and blitz at the same time since Kalista when auto-ing is much faster than you. All they have to do is all in you at level 1. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 12 2015 07:05 Goumindong wrote: No. It means that there isn't really anything that can be done in that lane. There is no way to play it because vayne loses any trade with Kalista and because Janna can't pressure her (or blitz) without being in a easy hook position. I mean sure you could say that Vayne could have kited blitz through creeps except that well, she was. She isn't fast enough without boots or red or attack speed to do that and blitz is tanky enough in the early game to not have to worry about the damage (50+ armor, 600+ HP at level 1 plus the mana shield plus pots) and you cannot kite both Kalista and blitz at the same time since Kalista when auto-ing is much faster than you. All they have to do is all in you at level 1. Janna with spellthief+ignite and Vayne will punch Blitz and Kalista in face level 1, lol. You won't have time to stack enough rends to get them. Or you meant other way around? Won't work. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On January 12 2015 07:05 Goumindong wrote: No. It means that there isn't really anything that can be done in that lane. There is no way to play it because vayne loses any trade with Kalista and because Janna can't pressure her (or blitz) without being in a easy hook position. I mean sure you could say that Vayne could have kited blitz through creeps except that well, she was. She isn't fast enough without boots or red or attack speed to do that and blitz is tanky enough in the early game to not have to worry about the damage (50+ armor, 600+ HP at level 1 plus the mana shield plus pots) and you cannot kite both Kalista and blitz at the same time since Kalista when auto-ing is much faster than you. All they have to do is all in you at level 1. There is this thing called a creep wave.They do a surprising amount of damage. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
if Blitz started E you should have been able to just fucking kill him when he used an On-hit inside of the creep wave how does he even get on top of vayne with full health without W or Q??? | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
I don't think Vayne should lose standard trades though. Janna shield is too strong for that if Blitz does not hit any hook. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 12 2015 07:07 Slusher wrote: I'm confused did he E Vayne, or did you E vayne? if Blitz started E you should have been able to just fucking kill him when he used an On-hit inside of the creep wave how does he even get on top of vayne with full health without W or Q??? Blitz e'd vayne in our creep wave and then he and Kalista killed her. At level 1. Which he can easily do because he has 50+ armor and 600+ Hp and the creep wave does not do that much damage and Kalista's martial poise allows her to easily get in and out and do far far more damage than vayne or janna could hope | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
I'm even interested in how did it happen now. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 12 2015 06:37 Alaric wrote: It's not that you "outrange" Hurricane, because it seeks secondary targets in a circle around the main target. It is that said range is 375 (to give you an idea, Lux's E has a 300 radius), so if you use your long range to attack someone, either you're positioned far yourself and there are less people coming for you (too spread to deal damage) or you're hitting a ranged opponent in the back (less people too usually). I guess people wanted to make Q for the poke on Kalista, and it's true that it gains 60 base damage per level. My idea was that maxing Rend you can very easily outdamage Q (or even 2 Qs), and if you're good enough about positioning and choosing when to fight to disengage then auto a minion and execute it (made easier as you level Rend since it increases the damage for a single stack), you're not constrained by its cooldown anymore. That removes a constraint on your ability to engage on your terms, and since her passive makes it easy to get somewhat in range, I think it makes her super flexible. No idea how the damage formula change weakens her (or not) during the laning stage though. Yes, you can outrange Hurricane iirc. There is a certain range where the item will stop adding the extra shots at regardless of secondary target proximity. It only happens in super rare cases with range steroids. That is, unless they ninja bug fixed it. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote: Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. I can agree that it is one of his better match ups but that isn't saying much. | ||
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