On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
Ok.I am using the same site.Alistar has 50.67% win rate vs leona with 226 games.Alistar is a hard counter to leona and absolutely destroys her lane.How is this possible?
I chose this intentionally because it has a similar game count.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
1) Because OVB doesn't exist without correlation between said variables and the weaker the correlation the weaker any prospective bias.
2) Because we don't have any reason to believe the alternate hypothesis(that Vayne/Janna should beat Kalista/Blitz)
A saturated model would be nice, but i don't have access to one so you take what you can get.
@sufficiency. i know you're being facetious but you can't have reverse causation if one thing necessarily comes before the other. Unless you're suggesting that only bad players pick vayne into kalista which would similarly suggest that she had a less than optimal win rate.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
That win-rate in challenger is because a lot of people play Janna because she is an easier support, and Blitz is much harder so the chance of having a good Blitz player vs a mediocre Janna player is bigger then vice versa. Leblanc had a 47% win-rate when she was broken beyond belief, win-rates don't tell the story of match-ups or even the current state of the game. Janna can zone Blitz from getting close to Vayne and she can shield Vayne so Vayne can win trades vs Kalista. I really wish I didn't have to do the math on this but I'll do it anyways just to show you that Vayne can trade against Kalista:
Lets assume level 2 vs level 2, Kalista went E-Q and Vayne went Q-W. A trade that Vayne wants = 3 Auto Attacks where one is amplified by Q. Kalista wants as much Auto Attacks as possible to empower her rend.
Both have AD red, HP Yellow, Mr p level Blue, and AS Quints.
To make it easier I won't go in-depth on Attack Speed to make it too complicated, we just assume that because Kalista has Q and the same Attack Speed she can get in 1 more AA then Vayne.
One AA by Vayne will do: 56 (base) + 8,5 (runes) / 1,18 (armor) = 54 damage. One AA by Kalista will do: 56 (base) + 8,5 (runes) / 1,18 (armor) = 54 damage. Kalista and Vayne have the exact same base stats as each other in terms of direct trading daming (except Kalista has 20 more HP).
Vayne Q does 71 damage (56 (base) + 8,5 (runes) x 1,30 (the Q damage) / 1,18) Vayne W proc does 20 + 23 = 43
So if we assume that Vayne will get 1 Q AA, and her W proc she does. 54 + 71 (Q proc) + 54 + 43 (W proc) = 222
Kalista Q does (56 (base) + 8,5 (runes) + 10 / 1,18) = 63 Kalista E 4 stacks does 53 + (21.2 x 4) = 137
So this means that Kalista's damage is: 54 + 63 + 54 + 54 + 137 = 362
WOW WAY MORE DAMAGE THEN VAYNE YOU'RE WRONG!
But we are forgetting the Janna shield, giving Vayne 80 + 70% AP more HP, and giving her extra AD. Assuming Janna has 10 AP.
80 + 7 = 87 HP 14 + 1 = 15 AD
So if Kalista's damage is reduced by 87 with the shield that means she does 275 damage. And if you properly shield when Vayne Q's so she gets the AD on her Q and next AA she will do: 54 + 76 + 69 + 43 = 242.
So once again Kalista does actually outdamage Vayne by 30 damage, but that means that one AA by you onto the Kalista, dodging the Q, and creeps can make the difference in winning the trade.
The point i'm trying to make here is that Vayne only does 30 less damage and can still dodge the Q to make her win the trade, I am not saying Vayne wins the match-up outright, nor am I saying that Blitz cannot possibly get onto Vayne and cause them to win the trade hard. What I'm saying that if you play it right you should not be losing this match-up as Vayne and Kalista do similar damage and both have outplay potential on each other.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
Ok.I am using the same site.Alistar has 50.67% win rate vs leona with 226 games.Alistar is a hard counter to leona and absolutely destroys her lane.How is this possible?
I chose this intentionally because it has a similar game count.
Plenty of bad Alistars? I mean champions have strengths and weaknesses but it's all for not if you pick the cow and the last time you played him was when heart of gold was an item.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
Ok.I am using the same site.Alistar has 50.67% win rate vs leona with 226 games.Alistar is a hard counter to leona and absolutely destroys her lane.How is this possible?
I chose this intentionally because it has a similar game count.
1) Either you're incorrect. Or other weaknesses of alistar come into play to negate his laning advantage. Alternately the std of 3.4% is so far from a high or low win rate that we would be suspicious when the estimated value is 50%. Though it would be if the estimated value were 43% or 57%.
Plenty of bad Alistars? I mean champions have strengths and weaknesses but it's all for not if you pick the cow and the last time you played him was when heart of gold was an item.
Challenger data, we can assume the Alistar's are just fine at it
Lets assume level 2 vs level 2, Kalista went E-Q and Vayne went Q-W. [Ed: Words I am not going to bother reading since we are talking about a level 1 fight not a level 2 fight.]
Yup if vayne is level 2 and so has both Q and W she does a lot better. But if Vayne is not level 2 as we were discussing and so only has Q then she does a lot worse.
edit Actually bothered to read that
So if Kalista's damage is reduced by 87 with the shield that means she does 275 damage. And if you properly shield when Vayne Q's so she gets the AD on her Q and next AA she will do: 54 + 76 + 69 + 43 = 242.
Kalista does 275 damage at level 2, Vayne does 242 damage at level 2. Kalista outtrades vayne by 35 damage(+20 HP) which is a whole auto attack worth of damage! That is FUCKING HUGE.
And it only gets worse if they continue the fight(which Kalista can do due to dash).
At level 1 this changes by another ~40 so that Kalista outtrades vayne by fucking 75 HP after the Janna shield! And then, on top of that she has 20 more HP, giving her a full 95 HP advantage after a trade! That is massive!
Edit: Missed that you had Q hitting. But even then, Kalista still wins the trade right through janna's shield not even accounting for the fact that you might have to pay attention to blitzcrank who is using this time to pull or (in this case) e.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
Ok.I am using the same site.Alistar has 50.67% win rate vs leona with 226 games.Alistar is a hard counter to leona and absolutely destroys her lane.How is this possible?
I chose this intentionally because it has a similar game count.
If I recall correctly, Alistar has around 45% winrate overall, while Leona has around 50% overall.
But if Alistar wins 50% of the time against Leona, there is evidence that Alistar is good against Leona.
On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote: You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
So how is a statistic that doesn't include any of those other factors relevant to the actual 2v2 matchup?
Haven't you learned anything on TL? Reverse causation and role-specific MMR.
Ok.I am using the same site.Alistar has 50.67% win rate vs leona with 226 games.Alistar is a hard counter to leona and absolutely destroys her lane.How is this possible?
I chose this intentionally because it has a similar game count.
If I recall correctly, Alistar has around 45% winrate overall, while Leona has around 50% overall.
But if Alistar wins 50% of the time against Leona, there is evidence that Alistar is good against Leona.
Yea nvm that the site is fucking broken.One of the builds in the top winning challenger builds has a malady on alistar with fotm which would be very impressive I have to admit.
Anyway that's it for me.Don't see a point in this.
Lets assume level 2 vs level 2, Kalista went E-Q and Vayne went Q-W. [Ed: Words I am not going to bother reading since we are talking about a level 1 fight not a level 2 fight.]
Yup if vayne is level 2 and so has both Q and W she does a lot better. But if Vayne is not level 2 as we were discussing and so only has Q then she does a lot worse.
edit Actually bothered to read that
So if Kalista's damage is reduced by 87 with the shield that means she does 275 damage. And if you properly shield when Vayne Q's so she gets the AD on her Q and next AA she will do: 54 + 76 + 69 + 43 = 242.
Kalista does 275 damage at level 2, Vayne does 242 damage at level 2. Kalista outtrades vayne by 35 damage(+20 HP) which is a whole auto attack worth of damage! That is FUCKING HUGE.
And it only gets worse if they continue the fight(which Kalista can do due to dash).
At level 1 this changes by another ~40 so that Kalista outtrades vayne by fucking 75 HP after the Janna shield! And then, on top of that she has 20 more HP, giving her a full 95 HP advantage after a trade!
Why are you trading at level 1 then, again thats just misplaying the lane. I was never talking about a level 1 fight, I was talking about the match-up as you said that Kalista Blitz was a bad match-up for Vayne Janna. You can AA Kalista during that trade making the difference, Vayne can manage creep aggro better making the difference, Kalista her Q can get dodged making the difference. 40 damage is negated by 5 Auto attacks on creeps with Dorans blade, and if you let it get to the point where the Kalista wins because her base HP is 20 higher you are playing the lane wrong. It only gets better for Vayne when she recalls and gets Cutlass as that item is stronger in lane then BF Sword is on Kalista (if she goes Zeal/Recurve she is even worse off). You are saying that Kalista can use her dash to continue the fight, this is assuming she won't lose the trade by going into the opposing creep wave, and if you are trading when your creep wave is smaller, you are misplaying the lane. What you're saying all implies that the lane is being misplayed from your side one way or another, it is true what you are saying, but you shouldn't let it get to the point where the 60 HP will make a difference. If you think I was talking about a level 1 fight Kalista always wins that (unless she does something really stupid), but I was never talking about a level 1 fight.
On January 12 2015 08:51 Sufficiency wrote: Do you guys actually use Elophant often?
I don't, but i don't have any other source of data for support matchups. You've got a big set, want to tell us how well these thing shake out?
edit: Because they forced the trade. Why else are you trading at level 1 against an enemy that beats you in trades? When do you trade at level 1? A: When you win the trades! Like how hard is this to understand?
On January 12 2015 08:51 Sufficiency wrote: Do you guys actually use Elophant often?
I don't, but i don't have any other source of data for support matchups. You've got a big set, want to tell us how well these thing shake out?
edit: Because they forced the trade. Why else are you trading at level 1 against an enemy that beats you in trades? When do you trade at level 1? A: When you win the trades! Like how hard is this to understand?
So you're saying its impossible to avoid bad trades? Guess there is no point arguing if all you're saying is that its impossible to ever create a situation in which you win by having good lane control and playing with the creep wave.
Has Box Box really been streaming for 25 hours already and gotten enough donations/subs by his system which added to another 28 hours he "has" to stream unless he hits diamond V before it?
My ad hoc calculations show that Alistar wins around 45% of the time with or without Leona on the other side. Leona does win 51.5% of the time though. This is 4.21 Plat+ on NA.
EPT
