|
|
|
On October 21 2014 07:03 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 06:22 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy. Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late. they were pretty even before jax's nerfs but I'd give the edge to irelia now. and this is besides the fact that irelia has a better early/mid game. irelia simply outclasses jax atm.
no they were not,even post nerf jax completely murders irelia late game, i wont even comment rest of ur post its obvious u are clueless
|
|
|
On October 21 2014 07:32 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:28 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 07:03 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 06:22 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:
hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range
[quote]
every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy. Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late. they were pretty even before jax's nerfs but I'd give the edge to irelia now. and this is besides the fact that irelia has a better early/mid game. irelia simply outclasses jax atm. no they are not jax completely murders irelia late game, i wont even comment rest of ur post its obvious u are clueless its pointess to argue with you Excellent points, you sure convinced me.
Jax slaughtered irelia if she ever fell behind, as well as once core items finish(blade+triforce for jax, assuming relatively equal farm). The timing has been delayed, and it's a lot harder to get there, but I'd be very surprised if anything other than a poppy could beat Jax at 6 items.
|
|
|
To be fair a 6 item Poppy murders anyone 1v1 and procede to 1v4 afterwards.
|
On October 21 2014 07:03 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 06:22 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy. Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late. they were pretty even before jax's nerfs but I'd give the edge to irelia now. and this is besides the fact that irelia has a better early/mid game. irelia simply outclasses jax atm.
Doesn't matter, because the discussion was better late games. Adding this just artificially pads an arguement.
|
|
|
On October 21 2014 07:47 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:45 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 07:03 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 06:22 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:
hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range
[quote]
every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy. Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late. they were pretty even before jax's nerfs but I'd give the edge to irelia now. and this is besides the fact that irelia has a better early/mid game. irelia simply outclasses jax atm. Doesn't matter, because the discussion was better late games. Adding this just artificially pads an arguement. That is why I said besides the fact.
That's like saying "No offence, but".
|
nobody was talking about laning phase, from the start discussion was about late game and jax completely crushes irelia at 6 items prenerf or post nerf doesnt matter
|
|
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:30 Alaric wrote:
Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone So Irelia isn't a carry because she has burst, and Jax isn't a carry because he doesn't have burst? Sure there are no melee carries if you specifically define your terms to exclude all possible champions from being melee carries. Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
If your term doesn't represent a meaningful entity, then why use the term? Especially since it's one that in other contexts already IS meaningful and useful with a slightly different definition? Like, I don't see the point of defining melee carry as something that cannot practically exist in the game. Why is that a useful thing to do? It doesn't improve our discourse in any way to borrow a term that has a practically useful meaning elsewhere and use it to instead define something that practically cannot exist.
Ahahaha you got baited into a discussion that is specifically prohibited in the OP
Is it hypocritical to laugh at you for doing that after I explicitly stated so many times that I think all the rules in the OP are bollocks? I hope not + Show Spoiler +nvm I don't mind either way
|
I never play Sejuani or Fiddle, but I think for Irelia vs. Amumu, assuming both are built as if they were toplaners I think I would take Amumu about 60% of the time.
|
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:30 Alaric wrote:
Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone So Irelia isn't a carry because she has burst, and Jax isn't a carry because he doesn't have burst? Sure there are no melee carries if you specifically define your terms to exclude all possible champions from being melee carries.
What I meant in that context is that Irelia bursts one target, and then usually has to stand back for cooldowns. She's heavily reliant on Hiten Style (and the spellblade passive) for her damage.
How to word it... Tristana, MF, Vayne, etc. still deal heavy damage once their steroid is on cooldown. Irelia's damage lowers drastically once Hiten Style is on cooldown (her "combo"/burst is also reduced when she doesn't have her ult to trigger spellblade easily).
Jax has good sustained damage but you can't really prime his ult's passive before jumping/walking in a teamfight for example, and even if you could, you'll hurt someone but usually not enough to force them off (especially a frontliner), so they'll be able to turn and damage you/keep you busy.
He won't kill you as fast as a marksman/glass cannon Tryndamere or Yi, may be what I mean, and because of this if you send a frontliner on him that'll keep him busy while you pound his HP bar.
My main point out of the discussion is that people should switch from "carry/AD carry" (you'll notice that even though we still say "AD carry" they're really the only case where the word carry is uttered anymore, as I pointed out you don't hear about the "AP carries" anymore) to marksman, implied to be "these ranged dudes who mainly use autoattacks and dish out a fuckton of safe, sustained damage in exchange for squishiness"*, with "midgame-oriented marksmen", "lategame marksmen", etc.
And that people should then pay more attention to the concepts of powerspikes and tempo/momentum (as hard as it is in soloQ), and from there acknowledge the distinctions betwen "semi/midgame carries", "lategame carries", etc. according to their role and place within the game. It'd help a lot.
What would also help a lot is that games don't all go late by default so the lategame carries have an inherent advantage, too. But that'd be asking Riot to make sense and practice some more anticipation in their decisions.
* Teemo and Kayle are "marksmen" that don't use crit, but they've never been targeted by the term anyway, even when Riot use it.
|
|
|
Doing some math, does the 20% damage increase on Spirit Stone affect the 6% healing, or no?
|
On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame.
- she doesn't do enough damage during Hiten Style to kill someone, and she doesn't even do that much when it's down (less than a fuckton of champions, like Shyvana, Zed, Mundo, etc.)
- she doesn't push a wave fast. She has no steroid apart from Hiten Style, no spammable AoE. Even Jax kills waves faster than Irelia with Hiten Style (especially late game) because of his passive. It'll become even worse season 5 become Riot will remove armour/MR scaling on minions and increase their HP to compensate, which screws with flat true damage.
- she doesn't kill towers fast either because she doesn't build AD and she doesn't have AS steroids or stuff like that. Renekton with a Cleaver or Tiamat would actually push waves and kill a tower faster than Irelia, she's only better at dueling.
- Irelia's mana pool is also rather short, and she relies on her W long cooldown. If you have sustain and use it on her wave when her W is down she can't fight you and you'll wear her out by using timings carefully.
- she can't ignore cc. She can reduce it. She can reduce some cc. I played against Vayne+Lulu+Pantheon+Renekton+Fiddlesticks one game. If they wanted to cc me for the full 5 seconds they needed to kill me lategame, they could, easily. Because her damage is tied to Hiten Style, any cc while her W is active is a big dent to her damage. Knock-ups, knock-backs, and cc not applied as a debuff hence not reduced by Tenacity (like Lulu's ult's slow AoE) still shit on her.
- her true damage doesn't scale much between level 9 and 18. What does is her AS/level, Q cd (can be lower than the 6s duration of W) and sometimes her itemisation (depending on how fast she gets triforce, she can get zerkers later, and sometimes BotRK/Zephyr). That's why she peaks midgame: enemy carry builds BV's? That 400 more HP, so at least 3 more attacks with maxed W (75 true + ~100 physical depending on enemy armour), so easily 2 more seconds to kill your opponent. That's a third of your main damage tool's duration. It takes even longer if that means her target will survive until Hiten Style stops.
Her sustain is also weaker, making her ability to dive, duel people, survive in general, weaker, because in the lategame primary damage dealers will have LW/void staff, there may be a BC or abyssal floating around, and she won't have penetration to prevent her ult's damage (and hence her healing) from being reduced. Hiten Style's passive healing scales like her damage, eg. just AS after level 9, and it loses relative value as both damage output and EHP grow.
I'm tired of seeing people argue that Irelia is a lategame champion. She's a fucking midgame diver/assassin, that's her job, she's tough to kill at that point and has enough burst with Triforce + maxed E that she can easily 100-0 someone by following up an initiation, and use the remaining duration of W and her ult to keep fighting, survive and get away waiting for her cds to come back up, then dive again to get a 2s stun on an enemy and kill him with the assistance of her team.
Lategame she can't duel many champions, let alone burst them down. Even if she was able to "win", it'd take her so long it wouldn't matter (important when splitpushing: if you can't kill fast, they'll just use their tower to prevent you from killing them, and stall you by simply clearing the wave fast).
|
|
|
Poppy best splitpusher ever because she can 1v1 anyone. Doesn't matter if she can't clear the waves for shit without Tiamat.
|
why not just build tiamat on irelia and solve your waveclear problems
there we go lcs time
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
