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On October 21 2014 12:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
Do supports scale well with farm then? They have good utility, and cdr lets them get their shit out a lot more. And now that for a lot of them AP scales on their utility, do they count?
It feels like good lategame is really ambiguous, because most champions seem scales well with farm because of how the game is made. There are champs like Mundo who become sort of unkillable with farm, but I don't know if he'd be described as a lategame champ.
There's shit like Anivia as well, I don't know if she counts as a late game champ.
The even bigger problem is champions who scale well into the late game even without a lot of farm. That sounds like a lategame champ to me, a champ whose strength lie in the lategame. Supports by nature of their kits usually scale well into the lategame. Then there are champs who get to the lategame before other champs to be good, but then it gets weird to talk about whether the lategame is decided by the state of lanes or the level/farm of certain champs or in-game time...
Since people were talking about Irelia, I'm guessing it's more like "damage scales well with farm". I don't really see that compared other champs. Carries with aoe damage do shit tons of damage. Stuff like Kayle does shit tons of damage. If we talk about only duelists, then I guess Irelia comes pretty close. I would think that Jax would be better, and maybe Riven. Tryndamire as well.
It all comes down to how effective a champion is at any point in the game. Late game champs are ones that peak in effectiveness (compared to their counterparts) at level 16-18 with 5-6 items. There are many various reasons why this is the case, but examples are:
Vayne: % true damage
Kog'maw: % damage
Tristana: max range from passive
Karthus: damage output combined with passive when full build
Jax: max attack speed from passive + ult damage combination at 16, able to negate auto attacks for 2 sec - this skill actually scales against the opponent ADCs damage
Tryndamere: damage output when full build while invulnerable for 5 seconds
Warwick: % damage/heal combined with full build tank/CDR
Mundo: heals for a set %, so the tankier you become, the more effective the healing is.
Why most supports aren't really considered late game champions is because what they bring in effectiveness, they obtain very early on in the game. They are generally just as useful at level 6 than they are at level 18 with max items.
Now, on the topic of Irelia - she is certainly a good champion in the late game, but there is no way anyone can claim she is a late game champion. Her main source of damage is Hiten Style, which is flat true damage that does not scale - that alone is what makes her a mid game champion.
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I always feel weird thinking about Graves' passive. Does it really make that big of an impact in teamfights? Until you're higher level (and you come from a duo lane), you don't gain that much in the few seconds you may be able to deal damage until someone jumps on you. Worst, if you get engaged on you'll have at best 3 stacks while you eat the frontloaded burst of the enemy team. Apart from, say, Zed, there aren't that many champions that don't circumvent the stacking by just dealing most of their damage early on.
And it's not a good clean-up mechanic either because 30 armour won't make up for his short range and low base AS against other marksmen or clean-up champs. So I end up wondering if it really makes that big a difference.
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Graves passive is good early - mid game in small skirmishes. Thats all. Hes a great laner and is 40-60 vs lucian and thats pretty much it.
He works in comps where your there are other bursters on your team with one assassin with reset mechanics, or your entire team are mid game focused and you pretty much go ham early on and try to get to inhib ~20 minutes.
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On October 21 2014 17:21 Alaric wrote:
I always feel weird thinking about Graves' passive. Does it really make that big of an impact in teamfights? Until you're higher level (and you come from a duo lane), you don't gain that much in the few seconds you may be able to deal damage until someone jumps on you. Worst, if you get engaged on you'll have at best 3 stacks while you eat the frontloaded burst of the enemy team. Apart from, say, Zed, there aren't that many champions that don't circumvent the stacking by just dealing most of their damage early on.
And it's not a good clean-up mechanic either because 30 armour won't make up for his short range and low base AS against other marksmen or clean-up champs. So I end up wondering if it really makes that big a difference.
It‘s one of the things that is super oppressive when you're ahead, because now you have a fed adc who's also tanky (especially with life steal), but doesn't do much when you're behind
EDIT: With new soraka you max...starcall?
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On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game
Dude, 6 item Wukong is true terror. God I hate when that champ gets late game, he does SO MUCH DAMAGE and he's slippery! and tanky! Wukong outscales the fuck out of Irelia.
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Seems like Gnar is pretty much ban/pick in Korean solo queue at the moment. Anyone play him much and can offer some reasoning?
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In lane he's a bully; out of lane he turns into mega gnar, is extremely tanky, does lots of damage and stuns your entire team for like 3 seconds. His R into W combo is just silly.
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He's also one of the tankiest champions in the game, if not the (didn't check for the resistances, I think he beats Nunu (or Alistar, can't remember which one got nerfed) in terms of HP), and his base damage are bonkers.
Just had a Lissandra get shat on in lane (against Syndra, can't blame him), and then do some of the ballsiest moves I've seen. E inside 3 people at less than 200 HP late game, W-ult the enemy Syndra-zhonya's active-Flash out. He survives and we get a 4 for 0 out of that (we were 5v4 after I solo'd Kha'Zix, but overall low and not many cooldowns are our disposal).
When the enemy team doesn't have disengage and her kit doesn't crap on her I'll admit she's scary. Oo
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On October 21 2014 17:16 foxmeep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 12:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
Do supports scale well with farm then? They have good utility, and cdr lets them get their shit out a lot more. And now that for a lot of them AP scales on their utility, do they count?
It feels like good lategame is really ambiguous, because most champions seem scales well with farm because of how the game is made. There are champs like Mundo who become sort of unkillable with farm, but I don't know if he'd be described as a lategame champ.
There's shit like Anivia as well, I don't know if she counts as a late game champ.
The even bigger problem is champions who scale well into the late game even without a lot of farm. That sounds like a lategame champ to me, a champ whose strength lie in the lategame. Supports by nature of their kits usually scale well into the lategame. Then there are champs who get to the lategame before other champs to be good, but then it gets weird to talk about whether the lategame is decided by the state of lanes or the level/farm of certain champs or in-game time...
Since people were talking about Irelia, I'm guessing it's more like "damage scales well with farm". I don't really see that compared other champs. Carries with aoe damage do shit tons of damage. Stuff like Kayle does shit tons of damage. If we talk about only duelists, then I guess Irelia comes pretty close. I would think that Jax would be better, and maybe Riven. Tryndamire as well. It all comes down to how effective a champion is at any point in the game. Late game champs are ones that peak in effectiveness (compared to their counterparts) at level 16-18 with 5-6 items. There are many various reasons why this is the case, but examples are: Vayne: % true damage Kog'maw: % damage Tristana: max range from passive Karthus: damage output combined with passive when full build Jax: max attack speed from passive + ult damage combination at 16, able to negate auto attacks for 2 sec - this skill actually scales against the opponent ADCs damage Tryndamere: damage output when full build while invulnerable for 5 seconds Warwick: % damage/heal combined with full build tank/CDR Mundo: heals for a set %, so the tankier you become, the more effective the healing is. Why most supports aren't really considered late game champions is because what they bring in effectiveness, they obtain very early on in the game. They are generally just as useful at level 6 than they are at level 18 with max items. Now, on the topic of Irelia - she is certainly a good champion in the late game, but there is no way anyone can claim she is a late game champion. Her main source of damage is Hiten Style, which is flat true damage that does not scale - that alone is what makes her a mid game champion.
warwick without damage items does literally zero damage lategame as full tank rofl.
infact when the game came out i recall the "with warwick on your team past 30 minutes he contributes nothing" that was back in the day of bloodrazor though, not sure if anythings changed about him since then, even though he's mostly got passive changes.
almost 100% prefer 6 item irelia over warwick in 99% of cases.
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Only downside with Gnar is that you can't freely switch between the different forms, and it's very obvious when a change is about to happen. Basically a soloq hero but for arranged requires a team with very strong initiation so you can choose when to fight.
edit: WW late is very strong, the tankiness is obscene as long as you can consistently hit something and the damage with just botrk and wits is quite enough to be a threat.
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On October 21 2014 20:44 Osmoses wrote:
Only downside with Gnar is that you can't freely switch between the different forms, and it's very obvious when a change is about to happen. Basically a soloq hero but for arranged requires a team with very strong initiation so you can choose when to fight.
edit: WW late is very strong, the tankiness is obscene as long as you can consistently hit something and the damage with just botrk and wits is quite enough to be a threat.
In Monte's words, picking Gnar in competitive will take a lot of work. The entire comp will have to be centered around him, the team will have to practice like such, and if it's ever strong or difficult to deal with he'll just get banned away and squander the time spent.
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Warwick dealing 0 damage late is just not true. Sunfire +your passive+Q+ult+W is enough to force ADCs to focus you, you don't need more. And when you have randuin thornmail ancient golem spirit visage sunfire (aka 4000hp 300 armor + damage reflec)t I can tell you that they don't want to focus you.
Source : ~250 games this season playing tank warwick jungle.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 21 2014 21:06 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 20:44 Osmoses wrote:
Only downside with Gnar is that you can't freely switch between the different forms, and it's very obvious when a change is about to happen. Basically a soloq hero but for arranged requires a team with very strong initiation so you can choose when to fight.
edit: WW late is very strong, the tankiness is obscene as long as you can consistently hit something and the damage with just botrk and wits is quite enough to be a threat. In Monte's words, picking Gnar in competitive will take a lot of work. The entire comp will have to be centered around him, the team will have to practice like such, and if it's ever strong or difficult to deal with he'll just get banned away and squander the time spent.
After 4.15 I feel Gnar can win/go even against pretty much any top laner in the meta and despite the clumsiness of mega gnar and the difficulty in finding the right fights, his numbers are so ridiculous that you can work around that (getting R/W onto 3 one time can often be gg when the game is sufficiently late). If numbers don't change I wouldn't be surprised if gnar was pick/ban tier until he's nerfed. Once his numbers are brought into line then yeah, you'll need to build a comp around him.
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On October 21 2014 20:44 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 17:16 foxmeep wrote:On October 21 2014 12:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
Do supports scale well with farm then? They have good utility, and cdr lets them get their shit out a lot more. And now that for a lot of them AP scales on their utility, do they count?
It feels like good lategame is really ambiguous, because most champions seem scales well with farm because of how the game is made. There are champs like Mundo who become sort of unkillable with farm, but I don't know if he'd be described as a lategame champ.
There's shit like Anivia as well, I don't know if she counts as a late game champ.
The even bigger problem is champions who scale well into the late game even without a lot of farm. That sounds like a lategame champ to me, a champ whose strength lie in the lategame. Supports by nature of their kits usually scale well into the lategame. Then there are champs who get to the lategame before other champs to be good, but then it gets weird to talk about whether the lategame is decided by the state of lanes or the level/farm of certain champs or in-game time...
Since people were talking about Irelia, I'm guessing it's more like "damage scales well with farm". I don't really see that compared other champs. Carries with aoe damage do shit tons of damage. Stuff like Kayle does shit tons of damage. If we talk about only duelists, then I guess Irelia comes pretty close. I would think that Jax would be better, and maybe Riven. Tryndamire as well. It all comes down to how effective a champion is at any point in the game. Late game champs are ones that peak in effectiveness (compared to their counterparts) at level 16-18 with 5-6 items. There are many various reasons why this is the case, but examples are: Vayne: % true damage Kog'maw: % damage Tristana: max range from passive Karthus: damage output combined with passive when full build Jax: max attack speed from passive + ult damage combination at 16, able to negate auto attacks for 2 sec - this skill actually scales against the opponent ADCs damage Tryndamere: damage output when full build while invulnerable for 5 seconds Warwick: % damage/heal combined with full build tank/CDR Mundo: heals for a set %, so the tankier you become, the more effective the healing is. Why most supports aren't really considered late game champions is because what they bring in effectiveness, they obtain very early on in the game. They are generally just as useful at level 6 than they are at level 18 with max items. Now, on the topic of Irelia - she is certainly a good champion in the late game, but there is no way anyone can claim she is a late game champion. Her main source of damage is Hiten Style, which is flat true damage that does not scale - that alone is what makes her a mid game champion. warwick without damage items does literally zero damage lategame as full tank rofl. infact when the game came out i recall the "with warwick on your team past 30 minutes he contributes nothing" that was back in the day of bloodrazor though, not sure if anythings changed about him since then, even though he's mostly got passive changes. almost 100% prefer 6 item irelia over warwick in 99% of cases.
yeah it's a bit ambiguous but I meant when he's full build, with the tankiness and CDR combined with % dmg that's why he's so strong late game. you do in fact usually have a BotrK in your build.
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does anyone remember the nick of famous Chinese fiora main or his stream /YT channel
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On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy.
you either play exclusively ADC, or you're just not scared of the right things. I'm scared of 2 item irelia. I give zero fucks about 6 item irelia if everyone in the game is also 6 items.
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On October 21 2014 07:39 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:32 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 07:28 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 07:03 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 06:22 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:
[quote]
So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy. Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late. they were pretty even before jax's nerfs but I'd give the edge to irelia now. and this is besides the fact that irelia has a better early/mid game. irelia simply outclasses jax atm. no they are not jax completely murders irelia late game, i wont even comment rest of ur post its obvious u are clueless its pointess to argue with you Excellent points, you sure convinced me. Jax slaughtered irelia if she ever fell behind, as well as once core items finish(blade+triforce for jax, assuming relatively equal farm). The timing has been delayed, and it's a lot harder to get there, but I'd be very surprised if anything other than a poppy could beat Jax at 6 items.
Nasus is still the best duelist at 6 items when it comes to melees.
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On October 21 2014 22:02 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 15:35 ParadeofMadness wrote:
Anyone who has played even a bit of toplane knows Jax beats Irelia at 6 items hands down. There is zero contest. What outplay are you talking about? If Irelia uses hiten style, Jax uses E and Jax wins trade. If Irelia doesnt use hiten style, Jax doesnt use E, Jax still wins trade from W and ult passive.
jax is the one who has to engage. I can just walk up trade a hit or two and use my stun to disengage before he gets his passive hit off. if he wants to re-engage while my stun is down, he's going to have to use his Q E to engage me and using the E as a stun rather than a means of mitigating my damage. that's when I can hiten style his face in and then disengage again as soon as my e is back up. it gets even better when minions are there since I can juke his E by q-ing to minions then re-engaging. I've beaten tons of jax's in late game duels with irelia. maybe it's easier for me since I know jax pretty well (3rd most played last season) but 'zero contest?'. I don't think so. Again, I'm willing to test this out with anyone full item vs full item and I am quite confident I can at least win 50% of the duels. a brain dead jax will beat a brain dead irelia but if the irelia has any brains it's pretty even with more outplay potential for irelia imo.
any good Jax knows exactly what Irelia's outplay potential is and will not succumb to it. Irelia can never "walk up and trade a hit or two" she loses this trade EVERY time - Jax will simply auto, W reset auto, ult auto. Irelia is going to what... do 2 auto attacks in that time with her ~150 AD?
you can do ANYTHING you like with Irelia, but unless you pop Hiten Style, you only do auto attack damage - Jax has empower and his ult.
and why does Jax even have to use his Q E combo to engage? he can just Q to you and chase you down with Furor/TriForce, then wait till you use Hiten to counter strike. the fact that you think Jax has to Q E and stun you to engage means you do not understand the matchup.
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EPT
