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On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
If your term doesn't represent a meaningful entity, then why use the term? Especially since it's one that in other contexts already IS meaningful and useful with a slightly different definition? Like, I don't see the point of defining melee carry as something that cannot practically exist in the game. Why is that a useful thing to do? My term does represent a meaningful entity, just one that doesn't/cannot exist within the framework of league. Its useful for precisely that reason. So that when people complain about a "lack of melee carries in league" you know what they're talking about. And when people design champions which are meant to fit in that space you can say "no that is bad design". It doesn't have a problem of other contexts. People who are suggest zed is a melee carry would not suggest that Lux is a ranged carry. People who suggest that jax is a melee carry would not suggest that Janna is a ranged carry. No one talks about Kassadin, Diana, Moredekaiser, Garen, or Poppy as melee carries. Despite all of them being melee champions who can do damage Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
Then what does APC mean to you? Because if carry implies marksmen, then the only APCs in the game are Azir, Kennen, Teemo, and niche builds on ADCs.
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On October 21 2014 04:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to. In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion.
Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community.
On October 21 2014 04:54 Gahlo wrote:
Then what does APC mean to you? Because if carry implies marksmen, then the only APCs in the game are Azir, Kennen, Teemo, and niche builds on ADCs.
Why would APC mean anything other than what it currently means?
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On October 21 2014 04:56 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:46 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to. In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion. Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community.
It can lessen the dumb discussion here, though.
Personally I'd like to see a melee carry that relies on mobility/utility and such instead of tankiness, and can output great damage without being a great duelist. I have no idea what this would look like but it's a fun to think of a Yi/Yasuo style carry that can't 1v1 you off to the side / splitpush like a god.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2014 04:56 Goumindong wrote:
Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community.
Why would I give a shit about the greater League community?
My only concern is with our TL LoL microcosm, lol. If I actually cared or paid attention to the League community as a whole I would have gotten an aneurysm years ago.
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On October 21 2014 04:56 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:46 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to. In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion. Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community. Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:54 Gahlo wrote:
Then what does APC mean to you? Because if carry implies marksmen, then the only APCs in the game are Azir, Kennen, Teemo, and niche builds on ADCs. Why would APC mean anything other than what it currently means?
On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
Those are the only 3 marksmen that typically build off of AP. If Carry doesn't mean "does damage" then champions like Brand can't be an APC because he 1) isn't a marksman and 2) only has the term carry applied to him because he "does damage."
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Man and I thought the shitposting in OT was bad
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On October 21 2014 05:06 Requizen wrote:
Man and I thought the shitposting in OT was bad
It's been 12 days since a patch, welcome to GD.
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Canada2270 Posts
Excellent. Now that the season 4 icons are coming out I have a reason to bust out the season 2 worlds icon and feel hipster
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On October 21 2014 05:04 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:56 Goumindong wrote:On October 21 2014 04:46 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to. In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion. Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community. On October 21 2014 04:54 Gahlo wrote:
Then what does APC mean to you? Because if carry implies marksmen, then the only APCs in the game are Azir, Kennen, Teemo, and niche builds on ADCs. Why would APC mean anything other than what it currently means? Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's. Those are the only 3 marksmen that typically build off of AP. If Carry doesn't mean "does damage" then champions like Brand can't be an APC because he 1) isn't a marksman and 2) only has the term carry applied to him because he "does damage."
Context son; try to understand it.
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Side note: I feel like AP Carry is a far less commonly used term than it was one or two years ago.
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On October 21 2014 05:11 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 05:04 Gahlo wrote:On October 21 2014 04:56 Goumindong wrote:On October 21 2014 04:46 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to. In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion. Sure but that isn't how the term is being used. And you trying to define the term in another way will not change the lexicon of the greater league community. On October 21 2014 04:54 Gahlo wrote:
Then what does APC mean to you? Because if carry implies marksmen, then the only APCs in the game are Azir, Kennen, Teemo, and niche builds on ADCs. Why would APC mean anything other than what it currently means? On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's. Those are the only 3 marksmen that typically build off of AP. If Carry doesn't mean "does damage" then champions like Brand can't be an APC because he 1) isn't a marksman and 2) only has the term carry applied to him because he "does damage." Context son; try to understand it.
No, having a term mean one thing in one situation and not mean it in another, especially in the same setting, is shitty communication.
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On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane,
actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game
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On October 21 2014 05:14 TheHumanSensation wrote:
Side note: I feel like AP Carry is a far less commonly used term than it was one or two years ago.
Because it was a dumb term that just meant "Midlaner", but now that like 50% of meta Midlaners are AD scaling champions (and we don't call Zed or Talon AD carries), champions like Ahri are more like Zed than Orianna, and tons of AP champions like Ryze, Kayle, and Lulu can go to either solo lane it makes little sense to use it.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, the explicit support item distinction in S4 more or less makes "AP carry" a redundant term because a champion that buys primary AP items is necessarily a high farm priority champion (i.e. a carry).
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Canada23833 Posts
Arguing over syntax is fun!
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I thought we were doing semantics?
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On October 21 2014 05:55 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 05:23 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 04:51 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 04:14 kongoline wrote:On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game. its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices) ?? She's a big threat late game because of true damage and she ignores cc like they're nothing. Hardly anyone can match her splitpush either in the lategame. 30% better than irelia? Try naming even 5 toplaners better than irelia in the lategame. i even said in my post not many of them can top lane, actually in theory every ranged adc could top lane and then outscales irelia (doesnt mean its good for team to have second squishy adc), champions there arent played top like fiddle,amumu,sejuani are way better than irelia late game, also champions which are currently played top (some of them not popular because of weak laning phase or mid game) like mundo, alistar,ryze,maokai,jax, vlad,poppy, nasus, wukong i would even argue that things like riven and zac outscale and have more impact in team fights super late game fiddle no. amumu no. sejuani no. mundo debatable. ali no. ryze debatable. mao debatable. jax no not anymore. vlad no. poppy ok. nasus debatable. wukong no. riven no. zac no. I feel you are heavily biased towards champs with good cc. having good cc does not make you better lategame. i'm much more scared of a 6 item irelia than a 6 item amumu, sej, fiddle, etc. irelia is a lot more flexible since her usefulness isn't only limited to teamfights. great at picks, great at splitpushing, and decent in teamfights. if you honestly prefer a 6 item fiddle, sej, amumu, etc. over a 6 item irelia, I call you crazy.
Not sure how 9 armor and 247 health is enough to make Jax worse than Irelia late.
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that list is so wrong i think i lost brain cells
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you guys should just all play poppy or some shit if you want to fantasize about "melee carries"
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EPT
