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On October 21 2014 01:42 iCanada wrote:
Quinn isn't even bad bottom lane... she shoves easily, trades really well.
She is actually really good against Caitlyn compared to most ads, and she smashes a couple others.
I'll say it again, her problem isn't her, it's that Lucian exists.
The reason she isn't amazing is more a stylistic and current itemization thing.
How does she shove easily? I dunno if E or Q max is popular now but even with Q max you clear pretty slow...
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Irelia's supposed to be good against this kind of champions, but whenever you Q to a minion she can reactively blind you, so even if your stun goes through she likely won't take any auto until it stops (especially if she buffers the animation into the stun duration), and then she Es you. Either you blow Q to keep trading but half of Hiten Style's duration is gone so you won't do much (and you're now dependant on a 14s cd to do it again), or you run back to your wave and take her passive and 1-2 autos because of the slow (if she has boots advantage on you she can walk out of Q range during the "interrupt" after she lands, and the slow will stop you from going back to her altogether).
Last time I played against one, I had the advantage in that I could get her low whenever I had ult up, and she would lose a straight-up fight, but I'd never be able to kill her. She'd either lifesteal back up, or if I went on her again she'd barely survive, run under her tower, and ult back to lane (if I stay at that point I probably lose the trade because I'm not full and have no ult, if I'm gone then she more or less matches my TP; either way she doesn't miss much cs/exp because Quinn will always push in that match-up). Maybe I could have killed her with Ignite over TP.
The important thing is that I couldn't kill her. I'd win the fights and she'd have to avoid me, but I probably wouldn't be able to take a tower against her (can't ignore her damage, but can't dive her, and can't push against her anyway). If she pushes and draws me out she can ult if I try to TP (if I TP in view she Es me and runs, TP cancelled and I can't punish her) to join the fight a bit later, or ult preemptively to force my TP. After that her ult will be up well before my TP even if I used it on a tower, so she can do it again and force a 5v4.
Also noticed Irelia has a godawful 35 mana/level growth. Well that explains why she runs oom so easily despite her spells costing to little. x) Everytime I look at W I think "but this spell's so free!", turns out it actually still costs more than she gains per level. She stills has hilariously low costs, and I assume keeping her pool low is to limit her usage of Q to last hit.
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Saying Lucian outclasses Quinn makes absolutely no sense. Lucian outclasses every single fucking champion in the game so yeah of course you'd better pick lucian than quinn.
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On October 20 2014 15:52 Shikyo wrote:
Quinn is all physical dmg. Physical dmg is weak for melee because the itemization is so bad for building tanky and physical. Melee carry can be balanced if they scale with AP so that they can pick up actually good items. .
No, they cannot. See Diana. Akali really isn't a melee carry.
The problem with melee carries is not itemization. The problem is that if they're strong enough to carry they're overpowered and if they're not strong enough to carry they're weak. The mechanics of 5v5 teamfights necessitate that melee champions are tanks, or cleanup with no true carry potential (unless very far ahead) just because carries are priority targets and melee necessitates that you're targetable by all enemies.
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On October 21 2014 02:47 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 15:52 Shikyo wrote:
Quinn is all physical dmg. Physical dmg is weak for melee because the itemization is so bad for building tanky and physical. Melee carry can be balanced if they scale with AP so that they can pick up actually good items. . No, they cannot. See Diana. Akali really isn't a melee carry. The problem with melee carries is not itemization. The problem is that if they're strong enough to carry they're overpowered and if they're not strong enough to carry they're weak. The mechanics of 5v5 teamfights necessitate that melee champions are tanks, or cleanup with no true carry potential (unless very far ahead) just because carries are priority targets and melee necessitates that you're targetable by all enemies.
Yup. The only way a melee carry would be balanced is if they gave it a Vlad-like passive, except much better like: 1 AD = 3 Def, 1 AS = 1.5 MR, 1 Crit % = 20 HP.
Then you have to figure out how to make it almost impossible for this champion to farm, and how to keep him irrelevant until level 11 (maybe 16), and 3 offensive items.
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The hell are you guys talking about. Do Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, etc not exist? If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 21 2014 03:08 Alzadar wrote:
The hell are you guys talking about. Do Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, etc not exist? If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid.
Pretty much this. As Yango has stated in the past, melee carries in Dota have builds that are much similar to Jax and Irelia. The concept of a glass cannon melee carry is a lie.
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yasuo is closest to the viable melee carry u can get, broken kit/passive and shield on top of ridiculous ult is what it takes to make MELEE adc viable in this game, then u have ghostcrawler saying that ranged is actually in disadvantage because they have to kite ...
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 21 2014 03:10 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:08 Alzadar wrote:
The hell are you guys talking about. Do Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, etc not exist? If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid. Pretty much this. As Yango has stated in the past, melee carries in Dota have builds that are much similar to Jax and Irelia. The concept of a glass cannon melee carry is a lie.
Those crazy yi mains that can 1v5 in lomoQ almost make the glass cannon melee carry seem like a truth
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Irelia is closer to an assassin,
Jax is more like a duelist who's godlike at clean-up but needs a frontline because even with his ult on he can't withstand the initial burst of a team,
Yasuo's a carry, however you'll note that he doesn't really wreck a team by himself (unless he gets like a 3-man knock-up and everyone's gathered so his follow-up Qs hit everyone), usually he needs someone to setup the team-wise knock-up for him, and then it's more that he's usually picked with a wombo-combo team. His shield and damage output once he has IE and Shiv (so usually 3rd item, 4th if he needs a GA or something before IE) make him really good at 1v1ing anyone even without his ult (it's stupidly hard for a mage or assassin to kill Yasuo because of his shield, Windwall, and the shield refresh if he ults, you just don't have the raw damage/burst to deal with all that EHP), and once his ult goes off he can deal with pretty much anyone in a short time, however in full-scale teamfight you have to consider that what makes a Yasuo terrifying, eg. the 5-man Pulverise or Shockwave, is a winning move on its move as long as there's follow-up, even when Yasuo isn't in the game.
Edit:
Actually, Irelia could be considered a carry because her tempo and impact on the game is huge if she gets ahead, and she doesn't rely on gimmicks/untargetability (see Fizz, or Akali's huge sustain that's actually more the issue than her damage if she's ahead and you lack cc), but actual itemisation.
However, because she falls off pretty hard later (also just try to assassinate a Vayne or Trist, damn) you can't call her a carry...
But what we call "carries" in LoL generally only means "late game carries". Which is dumb. Well Riot's helped it a lot since the start of the year because of all the shit they made to allow "comebacks" and prevent leads from being leveraged effectively, but normally in LoL you should also call "carries" champions that fit the role of a carry at another point in the midgame, like, say, the midgame.
We used to talk about AP carries because a mage could win the game by themselves, now it's much harder unless they're a mobile assassin (so Fizz rather than Lissandra, say) or something broken by design (Ziggs's lack of significant weaknesses).
Why don't we call champions for a big powerspike and impact in the midgame "carries", whatever add "midgame" or "semi" in front of it if you want, like Zed (who can dominate a game until enemy carries get QSS/Zhonya's/Randuin's), Irelia, Rumble, Junglesticks, etc. instead of reserving that name to marksmen, and some rare mages like Ryze or Karthus?
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On October 21 2014 03:13 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:10 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 21 2014 03:08 Alzadar wrote:
The hell are you guys talking about. Do Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, etc not exist? If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid. Pretty much this. As Yango has stated in the past, melee carries in Dota have builds that are much similar to Jax and Irelia. The concept of a glass cannon melee carry is a lie. Those crazy yi mains that can 1v5 in lomoQ almost make the glass cannon melee carry seem like a truth
in unorganized soloQ this works because people pick random shit they want to play dont look on team compositions, gl playing glass melee adc vs perma CC/exhaust /peel this game provides atm
also irelia is a bruiser she isnt source of sustained dps late game
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Well guess what the majority of the game is, unorganised soloQ bullshit
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On October 21 2014 03:18 Fusilero wrote:
Well guess what the majority of the game is, unorganised soloQ bullshit
the higher elo u go the higher chance is when u pick yi u will run into rammus,leona etc which make ur life hell, also in soloQ yis/tryn win mostly by split pushing/making picks because of the nature of soloQ not in 5v5 teamfights
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On October 21 2014 03:16 Alaric wrote:
Irelia is closer to an assassin,
Jax is more like a duelist who's godlike at clean-up but needs a frontline because even with his ult on he can't withstand the initial burst of a team,
Yasuo's a carry, however you'll note that he doesn't really wreck a team by himself (unless he gets like a 3-man knock-up and everyone's gathered so his follow-up Qs hit everyone), usually he needs someone to setup the team-wise knock-up for him, and then it's more that he's usually picked with a wombo-combo team. His shield and damage output once he has IE and Shiv (so usually 3rd item, 4th if he needs a GA or something before IE) make him really good at 1v1ing anyone even without his ult (it's stupidly hard for a mage or assassin to kill Yasuo because of his shield, Windwall, and the shield refresh if he ults, you just don't have the raw damage/burst to deal with all that EHP), and once his ult goes off he can deal with pretty much anyone in a short time, however in full-scale teamfight you have to consider that what makes a Yasuo terrifying, eg. the 5-man Pulverise or Shockwave, is a winning move on its move as long as there's follow-up, even when Yasuo isn't in the game.
So Jax isn't a melee carry because he can't tank damage from the entire enemy team by himself?
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Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone if he isn't super fed (and even then it's in the midgame because W maxed and Triforce's powerspike vs. squishy opponents either behind in levels (and defensive ability/steroid not maxed) or without their defensive itemisation yet), and if he tries to gun for your frontline he's usually going to die faster than his team can kill the enemy Braum/Maokai/Renekton/Shyvana/etc.
He's strongest with the Triforce/BotRK combo but if he builds that he's just combo to explode as soon as he goes in. That's why you normally pick him to splitpush (dueling allows him to build that) or with someone else to handle the midgame period and Jax building one offensive item+tanky until he can farm a defensive core then his second offensive item on top of that to reach "carry-level" damage output.
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hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range
On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game.
every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar
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So if I understand what you guys are saying, to be a melee carry you need:
-ability to burst someone (but can't be an assassin)
-tanky as Braum/Maokai (must be able to withstand all the burst of a team)
-sustained damage (on the level of 6-item marksman)
-must be able to initiate teamfights
So again I say:
On October 21 2014 03:08 Alzadar wrote:
If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid.
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On October 21 2014 01:55 Kenpark wrote:
Lucian also crowds out Ez as the safe mobile adc. I can live with lane bullies, but Lucian just has it all. Good laner, mobile, best burst of any adc prob and good duelist cause of that. He is so smooth and fun to play, but somehow they need to keep him in check.
Agreed. I think he can keep all the things, but he should do then all worse than the niche champions can do it. It's a joke that his E is better than ez E. It's a joke that he bullies all the lanes, it's a joke that he has one of the highest damage scanning in the game, and it's a joke that he does it all with no real meaningful costs.
They either need to nerf him or buff everyone else so their niche is better than lucians counterpart.
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On October 21 2014 03:08 Alzadar wrote:
The hell are you guys talking about. Do Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, etc not exist? If those champions fall outside of your definition of "melee carry", then your definition is stupid.
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
We know that they are taking about this because the complaints about how "no melee carries exist" continue to this day, despite there being a tonne of champions which are melee and can carry(the list of which is surprisingly long). That or they would argue that those champions are not "strong enough" or "don't do enough damage" and well its true, because melee champions that can carry(in the sense that they take over the game) tend to be mages, assassins, tanks, or bruisers/fighters and not primary consistent DPS
This fits neatly in with the Quinn discussion, because "Quinn but melee" isn't a mage, assassin, tank, or bruiser/fighter. She would be primary consistent DPS. And well, that doesn't work unless you're ranged most of the time.
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EPT
