|
I'm talking about the "fantasy" of the melee carry people have, eg. someone who can do more or less the same job as a marksman, but being melee and not exploding as soon as he gets in range.
They don't need assassin-level burst, but they have to able to cripple someone they set their sights on (Tristana isn't an assassin but you'll die under 2s if she targets you with Q on late game), since compared to marksmen they can't fall back and kite if they're threatened.
I'm fine with a "carry" in the sense that he has the tools to outplay people (usually means either some form of dash-based mobility, or a phase-like ability to selectively dodge abilities/projectiles), but cannot 1v5 and relies on an initiator to set up a suitable environment for him (pretty much what Yi does, 'cept his steroids and Alpha Strike's mechanics rely on him killing people super fast and getting resets, not him being able to dish out reasonably high amounts of damage).
Tryndamere's ult is more about letting him assassinate someone, because unless he's against a bunch of squishies/scarce cc he'll rarely be able to reach and kill more than one person until his ult runs out if he isn't fed (and I don't think he relies on getting fed, he's just atrocious to deal with if it happens). I wouldn't call him a melee carry because of that (a 4-protect-1 should typically deal with Tryndamere pretty well too). And because he relies on his ult he can't go in and out of the fight the way, say, Fizz/Zed/Kha'Zix can once their cooldowns are spent. He's going to have his ult on cooldown and 10% of his HP, if he doesn't conveniently find a wraith camp or a minion wave to heal to full (and replenish his fury) and come back in he won't contribute more than that.
|
On October 21 2014 03:11 kongoline wrote:
yasuo is closest to the viable melee carry u can get, broken kit/passive and shield on top of ridiculous ult is what it takes to make MELEE adc viable in this game, then u have ghostcrawler saying that ranged is actually in disadvantage because they have to kite ...
as much as I hate defending ghostcrawler. He said that ranged champions are at a disadvantage(in terms of raw stats) and so have to kite.
|
Easy debate, see what are the best glass cannon melee carries : Riven, Yasuo, eventually Yi and Trynda.
What do they have ? Huge mobility, very good scaling, a shield or tanking skill.
Oh forgot Kha6 at some point.
|
No one seems to have the same definition of "melee carry" and it's just going to make this conversation as silly as it always is.
|
It really is time to get "melee carry" on the general discussion blacklist. So annoying.
|
|
|
United States23745 Posts
On October 21 2014 03:59 Prog wrote:
It really is time to get "melee carry" on the general discussion blacklist. So annyoing.
I don't think anything of value would be lost.
|
On October 21 2014 03:59 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:34 kongoline wrote:hes a bruiser with very high damage, trinity/bork rest tank jax does a lot but its still not exactly on the same level as 6item adc with a crit + range On October 21 2014 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
How does irelia fall off hard lategame? She's one of the best lategame champs in the game. every bruiser falls off late game compared to adc, atm u cant tank hypercarries lategame for more than 3 seconds if u want to stay relevant dmg wise unless u are one of the 3 broken tanks mao/mundo/alistar So just because you can't yolo dive hyper carries 1v5 (and they are hyper carries for a reason) you're bad lategame? Irelia can still easily 1v1 hypercarries late game and can draw a lot of attention so that your backline can deal more damage than theirs. I can't think of many champs id rather have late game.
its her mid game where shes OP but at 6item stage she falls off super hard, trinity rest tank irelia (most common build) cant really threaten 6item adc with any kind of peel and if u build more dmg u just melt, shes still decently tanky champion with some cc so always stays relevant but isnt even close to the best scaling champion in the game, in fact i would say 30% of champions in game are better than her super late game (not many can top lane or have such good laning phase/mid game thats why shes still a one of the better choices)
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2014 03:16 Alaric wrote:
Irelia is closer to an assassin,
On October 21 2014 03:30 Alaric wrote:
Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone
So Irelia isn't a carry because she has burst, and Jax isn't a carry because he doesn't have burst?
Sure there are no melee carries if you specifically define your terms to exclude all possible champions from being melee carries.
On October 21 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
If your term doesn't represent a meaningful entity, then why use the term? Especially since it's one that in other contexts already IS meaningful and useful with a slightly different definition?
Like, I don't see the point of defining melee carry as something that cannot practically exist in the game. Why is that a useful thing to do? It doesn't improve our discourse in any way to borrow a term that has a practically useful meaning elsewhere and use it to instead define something that practically cannot exist.
|
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:30 Alaric wrote:
Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone So Irelia isn't a carry because she has burst, and Jax isn't a carry because he doesn't have burst? Sure there are no melee carries if you specifically define your terms to exclude all possible champions from being melee carries.
A true carry has the burst to instant kill a squishy, the sustained damage to kill a tank, the tankiness to survive being on the frontline, and the utility to stay on top of them at all times.
So, you know, Lee.
|
Its a pretty simple definition: a Carry can kill tanks during a teamfight reliably. End. Now you find a melee character that can do that.
|
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
If your term doesn't represent a meaningful entity, then why use the term? Especially since it's one that in other contexts already IS meaningful and useful with a slightly different definition?
This was so me during the whole Renekton/Shyvana/Mundo "heavy bruiser" craze. It literally made no sense to me because all they were was tanks. The furthest they ever got from that was when a Renekton goes Tiamat or Shyv with a Bork.
|
On October 21 2014 04:26 cLutZ wrote:
Its a pretty simple definition: a Carry can kill tanks during a teamfight reliably. End. Now you find a melee character that can do that.
If you could find it, you'd be looking at the best champion in the game, and it should be obvious that would be the case.
Ranged carries can 'kill tanks during a teamfight reliably' if they are allowed to maintain their spacing and left unfettered by more than just the tank(and even then, in a lot of cases the tank can win). Obviously a champion with the damage output to reliably kill the hardest to kill things in the game, while also having the 'tankiness' to survive on the frontlines of a teamfight, is going to be broken as fuck.
It's not 'hard to balance' it's 'we wouldn't ever want that to be considered balance.' Apparently people want things like locket Udyr or release Xin Zhao to exist again or something.
|
United States47024 Posts
"Carry" in this sense refers to relative farm priority. In fact, back when League was AD solo, AP solo, and 2 tanks brawling/splitting farm in the 2v2 and ending up with relatively middling farm, it actually did refer to relative farm priority because the AD and AP got the relatively higher farm priority when the 2 tanks were just brawling and splitting farm. We still see this use in the term "carry jungler"--which doesn't refer to a jungler that can 1v5 lategame, but one that prioritizes personal farm more and sacrifices farm to help his team less compared to a standard jungler.
By the game evolved toward babysitting the AD and the frontline melee getting solo lane farm priority, this definition got lost--even though the tank got solo lane farm priority, the carry moniker didn't come with it because everyone had forgotten the origin of the term.
|
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:
When people talk about melee carries they're talking about tryndamere who can be effective in team fights when not fed. In League parlance a carry is "primary consistent DPS". And well, melee champions cannot be primary consistent DPS. They can be bursty/mages, they can be assassins, they can be tanks, they can be bruisers. They cannot be primary consistent DPS.
If your term doesn't represent a meaningful entity, then why use the term? Especially since it's one that in other contexts already IS meaningful and useful with a slightly different definition? Like, I don't see the point of defining melee carry as something that cannot practically exist in the game. Why is that a useful thing to do?
My term does represent a meaningful entity, just one that doesn't/cannot exist within the framework of league. Its useful for precisely that reason. So that when people complain about a "lack of melee carries in league" you know what they're talking about. And when people design champions which are meant to fit in that space you can say "no that is bad design".
It doesn't have a problem of other contexts. People who are suggest zed is a melee carry would not suggest that Lux is a ranged carry. People who suggest that jax is a melee carry would not suggest that Janna is a ranged carry. No one talks about Kassadin, Diana, Moredekaiser, Garen, or Poppy as melee carries. Despite all of them being melee champions who can do damage
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
|
On October 21 2014 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 03:30 Alaric wrote:
Because Jax doesn't have the burst to kill someone So Irelia isn't a carry because she has burst, and Jax isn't a carry because he doesn't have burst? Sure there are no melee carries if you specifically define your terms to exclude all possible champions from being melee carries.
in theory every melee can be carry if u build enough damage on him, i would consider glass cannon renekton melee adc but that doesnt mean its good or viable, if u build full glass as a melee atm you are doomed and forced to split push, even champions like zed with super high assassination potential are mostly used for split pushing because team fighting is so hard with them.
there are very few melee champions with enough free stats/damage which let them build only 1-2 dmg items to be tanky enough to get into melee rane and still be relevant late game dps wise, from top of my head can think only of jax and its still more of a super high dmg bruiser than melee carry,
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2014 04:43 Goumindong wrote:
Because carry doesn't mean "does damage" it means marksman. When people request melee carries they're requesting melee ADC's.
I'm fine with making the distinction between the term "melee ADC" and "melee carry", because the term "ADC" already has a connotation that is far more appropriate for what is being referred to.
In fact, I feel that's probably the most appropriate way to define these, with "melee carry" referring broadly to the class of high farm priority melee champions, and "melee ADC" referring specifically to this asinine concept of a 5-damage-item sustained damage melee champion.
|
On October 21 2014 04:35 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:26 cLutZ wrote:
Its a pretty simple definition: a Carry can kill tanks during a teamfight reliably. End. Now you find a melee character that can do that. If you could find it, you'd be looking at the best champion in the game, and it should be obvious that would be the case. Ranged carries can 'kill tanks during a teamfight reliably' if they are allowed to maintain their spacing and left unfettered by more than just the tank(and even then, in a lot of cases the tank can win). Obviously a champion with the damage output to reliably kill the hardest to kill things in the game, while also having the 'tankiness' to survive on the frontlines of a teamfight, is going to be broken as fuck. It's not 'hard to balance' it's 'we wouldn't ever want that to be considered balance.' Apparently people want things like locket Udyr or release Xin Zhao to exist again or something.
*The best champion in the game once it got to the point it could do the things we are talking about. Which is why, when I proposed a rough outline I said, that the trick is, "figur[ing] out how to make it almost impossible for this champion to farm, and how to keep him irrelevant until level 11 (maybe 16), and 3 offensive items."
|
|
|
On October 21 2014 04:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:35 red_ wrote:On October 21 2014 04:26 cLutZ wrote:
Its a pretty simple definition: a Carry can kill tanks during a teamfight reliably. End. Now you find a melee character that can do that. If you could find it, you'd be looking at the best champion in the game, and it should be obvious that would be the case. Ranged carries can 'kill tanks during a teamfight reliably' if they are allowed to maintain their spacing and left unfettered by more than just the tank(and even then, in a lot of cases the tank can win). Obviously a champion with the damage output to reliably kill the hardest to kill things in the game, while also having the 'tankiness' to survive on the frontlines of a teamfight, is going to be broken as fuck. It's not 'hard to balance' it's 'we wouldn't ever want that to be considered balance.' Apparently people want things like locket Udyr or release Xin Zhao to exist again or something. *The best champion in the game once it got to the point it could do the things we are talking about. Which is why, when I proposed a rough outline I said, that the trick is, "figur[ing] out how to make it almost impossible for this champion to farm, and how to keep him irrelevant until level 11 (maybe 16), and 3 offensive items."
You're basically talking about a better version of Poppy. It won't happen, especially not with Riot's design goals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
