EPT[Patch 4.18] Sion Reborn General Discussion - Page 58
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
On October 15 2014 17:11 JazzVortical wrote: Then why post this one? Why add more shit to what you say is shit? Because sometimes you have to call people out on bad behaviour so they hopefully don't do it again. | ||
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
On October 15 2014 16:45 JazzVortical wrote: No one is. He is pretty much a classic case of meant to be good a certain role/niche, turns out that niche is being good at everything. Thank god he can't dodge skillshots for free now/again. Although, it's still a crock of shit that his dash scales down to 0 cost. Mobility (especially when ground targeted) should never be free. Corki falls off later but his mid-game triforce spike lets you duel lucian relatively easily (compared to other ads) | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On October 15 2014 17:15 Scip wrote: I love the part where you didn't even bother to pretend your position is defensible Yeah that last post was shit on my part. Was heading to dinner. Not that I think your 'bustin' chops' approach is a good one, but whatever, I'd rather talk about League design. If you want my reasoning, then here it is. I assume your talking about the free mobility bit yes? Mobility is insanely powerful. It makes your character a lot safer. Being able to quickly put space between yourself and a potential gank for example goes a long way to thwarting the gank attempt. You can dodge high priority skillshots. You are also generally given the ability to traverse walls with a mobility skill, something that is inaccessible for several other champs, outside of Flash (given Flash's cooldown, this isn't always a feasible option, not to mention the obvious dangers of flashing over a wall without proper vision of the rest of team). On the other hand, you have massively increased play making potential, whether it be over a wall, or just closing the gap to start a fight. These strengths need a cost associated with them, and I don't think the cost is right with a lot of champs. Burning a cooldown isn't enough IMO. I think Caitlyn's net is bullshit (that's another discussion), but if she spends all her time throwing out peacemakers and goes OOM, at least she is vulnerable to being dueled/engaged upon, which she does not deal with well. Obviously this means a smart (or just not braindead) Cait will conserve enough mana to use her net in a tight spot, but that reduces her ability use the rest of her abilities and exploit her strengths (poke), as she has to keep some in reserve. Because net has a cost associated with it, being careful with abilities has to at least be taken into some consideration. Lucian is a problem (well not as much in lane anymore) because his natural weakness should be running out of mana. I've always tried to treat Lucian like Pantheon. A bitch to deal with, but if you can last through it til he's burned through his mana, you've now got the ascendency and can punish. Late game is different because mana usage naturally becomes less and less of a factor as the game goes on. However, having free mobility means you have access to the playmaking/safety it provides, without it hindering or it taxing the ability to use the rest of your kit. Maybe if free mobility skills had insane cooldowns, I could get on board. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
League RPG of some sort might as well be confirmed. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The idea isn’t blind trial and error, but a scientific method that relies on instincts, experience, and process to discover a creative result. Scientific -> instinct. Well, at least they're consistent is spewing nonsense whenever they churn out their PR stuff. x) | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 15 2014 19:26 Alaric wrote: Scientific -> instinct. Well, at least they're consistent is spewing nonsense whenever they churn out their PR stuff. x) Idk, I would think instinct would fit pretty well into make a hypothesis. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On October 15 2014 19:41 Osmoses wrote: No, instinct actually has precisely dick to do with the scientific method. I hope you're aware that that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with science. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 15 2014 18:10 JazzVortical wrote: Yeah that last post was shit on my part. Was heading to dinner. Not that I think your 'bustin' chops' approach is a good one, but whatever, I'd rather talk about League design. If you want my reasoning, then here it is. I assume your talking about the free mobility bit yes? Mobility is insanely powerful. It makes your character a lot safer. Being able to quickly put space between yourself and a potential gank for example goes a long way to thwarting the gank attempt. You can dodge high priority skillshots. You are also generally given the ability to traverse walls with a mobility skill, something that is inaccessible for several other champs, outside of Flash (given Flash's cooldown, this isn't always a feasible option, not to mention the obvious dangers of flashing over a wall without proper vision of the rest of team). On the other hand, you have massively increased play making potential, whether it be over a wall, or just closing the gap to start a fight. These strengths need a cost associated with them, and I don't think the cost is right with a lot of champs. Burning a cooldown isn't enough IMO. I think Caitlyn's net is bullshit (that's another discussion), but if she spends all her time throwing out peacemakers and goes OOM, at least she is vulnerable to being dueled/engaged upon, which she does not deal with well. Obviously this means a smart (or just not braindead) Cait will conserve enough mana to use her net in a tight spot, but that reduces her ability use the rest of her abilities and exploit her strengths (poke), as she has to keep some in reserve. Because net has a cost associated with it, being careful with abilities has to at least be taken into some consideration. Lucian is a problem (well not as much in lane anymore) because his natural weakness should be running out of mana. I've always tried to treat Lucian like Pantheon. A bitch to deal with, but if you can last through it til he's burned through his mana, you've now got the ascendency and can punish. Late game is different because mana usage naturally becomes less and less of a factor as the game goes on. However, having free mobility means you have access to the playmaking/safety it provides, without it hindering or it taxing the ability to use the rest of your kit. Maybe if free mobility skills had insane cooldowns, I could get on board. So basically because mobility skills are powerful they should in your opinion have some cost other than cd associated with them+for some reason you think that lucian's weakness should be high mana costs I guess at least you expanded your bold proclamation into 4 paragraphs which does at a first glance seem to make it more thought out | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you reduce his numbers then he becomes closer to generic marksman, so that's not the way to go about it. And if he has powerful trades for him, you want to reduce his ability to have/force them. I see 2 main solutions: - hit his cooldowns so he has larger windows between trades where he can be poked down for example (which combines well with his short range), and can't be as reckless with his dash since even with his passive it's not available as often. - hit his mana (pool or cost) so that his full combo for standard trades can't be done as often. He can be a bit pokey if he wants, but if he commits and gets access to his full power then his mana pool will take a dent, and after 2-3 times where he does this he's nearly oom and has to play more conservatively. This forces him to force fights when he's sure he can get something out of it (instead of just winning by default whenever he goes in), or play more aggresively (more exposed) to be able to shove his opponents out of lane/get a kill before he ends up oom. I find the comparison with Pantheon fit and that's why since a bit before his "rework" I've been thinking hitting his mana costs was the right call. Also do something about The Culling's damage. The initial gist was that it's weaker than his standard fighting patterns, but because of its long range it lets him contribute, however weak it is, in situation where other marksmen's damage output would be 0. 'cept currently it goes like this in terms of damage: standard abilities combo > The Culling > right-clicks Which shouldn't be the case: considering all its strengths (low cd, long range, usable while moving, etc.), its damage shouldn't outweight his auto dps. It's not because of a particular build either: BotRK-Ghostblade Lucian still deals significant damage because of the ArPen and GB's active (I see them activating it for autoattacks, not for the AS buff during The Culing), IE+Ghostblade Lucian does absolutely stupid damage through crits (esp. the double-crit) and has enough AD and ArPen that his standard combo is still his highest contributor, but The Culling is still stronger than his autos unless he crits. I think The Culling's upside should be utility (long range, makes you able to contribute when you otherwise would be zoned, waveclear, etc.) and not damage (eg. like Cait's Q and R, it should deal less damage than if you just auto the target for the duration). | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On October 15 2014 21:12 Scip wrote: So basically because mobility skills are powerful they should in your opinion have some cost other than cd associated with them+for some reason you think that lucian's weakness should be high mana costs I guess at least you expanded your bold proclamation into 4 paragraphs which does at a first glance seem to make it more thought out It's not "for some reason". He clearly states his logic in why mobility skills should have costs associated with them, and why they are so powerful within the context of the game itself (specifically addressing dashes/blinks and their ability to traverse walls, create plays, close distance, dodge high priority skillshots). You are just ignoring what he says. For someone who talked about TL's general attitude towards useless posts, you sure seem pretty dedicated to making them in this discussion. You've already voiced your disapproval of his opinion, but you haven't actually addressed any of his points in the argument. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
It's hard to perfectly articulate, but it is basically the strong, quick, safe, trades they can force in lane plus a great midgame. I generally perceive these to be the points of the game that are key in pro games, and the least random in soloqueue. So yea, IMO strong, but not op Lucian i a tough cookie to crack | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Also lucian is just a very easy to play champ while his counterplay is hard that is kind of a problem.Like if you play well you can beat him with a lot of ads but can be hard for a lot of people. As for laning can pick most champs honestly.Caitlyn/graves probably the easiest but if you are very good vayne is probably the strongest. | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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