EPTTop - Stanley
Jungle - DinTer
Mid - Toyz
AD- GoDJJ
Support - Awei
source from their facebook
[Patch 4.18] Sion Reborn General Discussion - Page 31
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
Top - Stanley Jungle - DinTer Mid - Toyz AD- GoDJJ Support - Awei source from their facebook | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
Anyway, landing skillshot is not rng. The worst LoL player in the world with 50% crit could crit the same amount (or even more) than the best LoL player in the world, but if we'd compare their ability to land skillshots, the difference would be abyssmal. Also, how on earth "based on past experience" is related to rng? Based on past experience means you are smarter, and you can actually lead your opponents into walking into your skillshots. Mindgaming someone is not luck and not rng. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 11 2014 17:18 Volband wrote: Saying landing skillshots are more or less like RNG hurts, and the next step is saying that everything is luck. Because from a specific viewpoint, everything could be indeed called luck. Anyway, landing skillshot is not rng. The worst LoL player in the world with 50% crit could crit the same amount (or even more) than the best LoL player in the world, but if we'd compare their ability to land skillshots, the difference would be abyssmal. Also, how on earth "based on past experience" is related to rng? Based on past experience means you are smarter, and you can actually lead your opponents into walking into your skillshots. Mindgaming someone is not luck and not rng. yango brings up poker, which has the same type of randomness as skillshots. you can infer your opponents hand or movements based on their actions and history, but you can never know, you have to make the guess. the people best at the inference succeed more than others, but everyone gets burned by a bad draw or a bad read. same with skillshots. there is always the random movement that you don't predict that can screw you. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
On October 11 2014 16:01 PrinceXizor wrote: i never understood the hate against RNG in league. skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance. Oh i'm not talking about whether its positive or negative for the game. only his claim that its only in there because its a result of the warcraft 3 engine. you can set high ground miss chance to 0 or even 100% on any map you want. its at 50% because icf frog wanted it at 50%. this just in, skill shots are now completely random. why are you allowed to post here. Its absolutely impossible that you believe half of the shit you post. I think you're confusing unpredictable with random. they're two completely different concepts. just stop. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 11 2014 17:22 PrinceXizor wrote: yango brings up poker, which has the same type of randomness as skillshots. you can infer your opponents hand or movements based on their actions and history, but you can never know, you have to make the guess. the people best at the inference succeed more than others, but everyone gets burned by a bad draw or a bad read. same with skillshots. there is always the random movement that you don't predict that can screw you. The strategy space and game structure of the skillshot mini game and the strategy space of a poker hand are not in any way analogous. Skillshots do not have a beat for an RNG, are continuous, and has (more or less) perfect information*. Poker has a beat, is discrete, and has imperfect information. *Yes you can shoot blind skill shots and there is often asymmetric vision information when executing but i don't think you're talking about these situations but rather talking about the positioning and zone adjustments which occur when both players can see each other and are attempting to land skill shot damage/avoid skill shot damage | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On October 11 2014 17:22 PrinceXizor wrote: yango brings up poker, which has the same type of randomness as skillshots. you can infer your opponents hand or movements based on their actions and history, but you can never know, you have to make the guess. the people best at the inference succeed more than others, but everyone gets burned by a bad draw or a bad read. same with skillshots. there is always the random movement that you don't predict that can screw you. In poker you get dealt with random cards, so your strengths always vary, while your opponent has no idea what your cards are, so your strengths are also hidden. In LoL your abilities are an open book. If a Leona walks up to you, she won't just do a Vlad Q to your face, because that's the skill she got randomly at the beginning. The "guess" you are talking about is more skill than rng, and you can pull a lot of mindgames. Like you are chasing someone with Nami, yo even slowed him, everyone is expecting you to stun him, than bam, you stun his teammate who is trying to help him, because he thinks he's already in safety. That's not randomness, you deceived them, you deserve every credit for it. On the other hand, you only have an infinity edge, but you critted 2 times out of 2. Pure rng. I get what you are saying, that you can not control it for a 100%, and the only times your skillshots are bound to hit is when someone is locked down, but that's why I brought up luck. If landing skillshots is rng, than winning games are just luck. If we wanted to go deep into this shit, nothing in the game but your own movements are controllable, so basically you don't do anything. You landed a skillshot? No, he walked into it. You made a good trade? No, he made a bad one, maybe 4 secs later he would've done an awesome trade. Enemy jungler is ganking like crazy, yours is derping? Luck, same wth all the other 9 players really, for better or worse. The fact that we are talking here is luck as well: maybe I never find TeamLiquid. Maybe I could made friends with dota2 guys, so I was never introduced to LoL so I'd never post on this subforum. Maybe all it took is that someone was 1 minute faster suggesting LoL for me. What's the point of this? Everything in life could be dumbed down a series of rng events, and this mentality could kill every seed of conversation in all aspects of life. - Hey, what if we-- - Nah, don't worry about it. It either happens or not, totally not up to us. Skillshots being rng would be a great topic after 5 beers around a table playing poker, we could have a good laugh. I, howewer, downvote it in a serious conversation, because if we can't even establish whether the guy who lands 8 hooks out of 10 is better than the one who constantly lands only 3, but even those are terrible, then it's pointless to continue. On October 11 2014 17:29 ItsFunToLose wrote: this just in, skill shots are now completely random. why are you allowed to post here. Its absolutely impossible that you believe half of the shit you post. I think you're confusing unpredictable with random. they're two completely different concepts. just stop. Well, he has TL gold so he must have some awesome posts to balance it out. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Both players make the guess to the best of their abilities, but saying its pure skill and not any luck involved is silly. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 11 2014 17:59 PrinceXizor wrote: You apparently don't get what i'm saying. when there is an element in which you have to guess, there is luck involved. period. a player pinned against a wall can walk in 180 degrees. 90 degrees of it are going to result in getting killed, so you have to guess among the other 90 degrees, probably 40 or 50 degrees being covered by your skillshot, so you pick the 40-50 degrees that give the opponent the best chance to live if they head in that direction. you have to leave the rest up to chance. you gave yourself the better odds, but there are still odds. the opponent can choose to take the best chance for survival or take a risk. you don't have anyway of knowing for sure which he will do. thus to you, his action is random for all purposes. pretending its skill to make what to him is a 50/50 guess, but to you is a 60/40 or better guess is denying the ability to chose of both players. Both players make the guess to the best of their abilities, but saying its pure skill and not any luck involved is silly. You shoot a basketball. Are there odds or no? I suggest yes. edit: I would suggest further that it is still pure skill regardless of the odds. Does that make shooting a basketball similar to playing a hand of poker? I suggest no edit2: I think you're getting confused Xizor by the concept of probability. In any situation in which the outcome is uncertain there will be some amount of probability. If we go deep enough we could almost always consider that an RNG. You shoot a basketball you can't control your arm perfectly so you will miss some % of the time. Your arm movements are random with a center at your shot. Does this mean that there is an RNG involved in a baksetball shot? Typically we consider that the answer is no, even if a large number of shots look indistinguishable from an RNG, even if we could model it with an RNG. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Deleted User 45971
533 Posts
On October 11 2014 18:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: i feel like princexizor isn't making a bad point but he's getting railroaded here Well when he writes things like skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance. Claiming skillshots are inherently out of control of the caster most of the time and saying it's the same as the RNG on crits, which is how I read that, it's no surprise to me that people railroad him given how he chose to present his point. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
It's impossible to 100% predict your opponent and thus control the outcome of skillshots, if you call it "luck" or "experience" or something third doesn't really change that fact. | ||
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Deleted User 45971
533 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 11 2014 19:06 Potatisodlaren wrote: Well when he writes things like Claiming skillshots are inherently out of control of the caster most of the time and saying it's the same as the RNG on crits, which is how I read that, it's no surprise to me that people railroad him given how he chose to present his point. I never said most of the time. i said except in certain situations. i never said how much of the whole those certain situations take up. people should stop putting words in my mouth so they can find something to argue with. the skill in hitting a skillshot isn't in where you choose to aim it, unless you are threading it through a wave or something. the skill is how you set up the shot in the first place. where you guess they will be is just following up on your setup. and whether it hits or not after the set up is luck. if you did it properly its greatly in your favor, but its still luck. | ||
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Deleted User 45971
533 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 11 2014 19:20 Potatisodlaren wrote: Still not the same as RNG on crits, that's just a ridiculous analogy. I mean crits are the same regardless of the player, that's why they are problematic, but with skillshots the players skill greatly improves the chance of hitting which mean the caster does have a huge impact of them hitting it which is why they aren't problematic in the same way that crits are. Pseudo random abilities like crits can be abused by players to gain an advantage as well. | ||
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Deleted User 45971
533 Posts
On October 11 2014 19:22 PrinceXizor wrote: Pseudo random abilities like crits can be abused by players to gain an advantage as well. Could you show me a VOD of that actually happening in a way that merits the comparison to skillshots? I don't think I've ever seen it and certainly not having a meaningful impact. Meanwhile good players are using skillshots in teamfights while taking into account the mobility abilities and their cooldowns and positioning of multiple people all the time. | ||
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