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On October 11 2014 15:58 Slusher wrote:
I actually like high ground miss chance, but I like critical strikes so call me crazy
i never understood the hate against RNG in league. skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance.
On October 11 2014 16:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:56 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 11 2014 15:55 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2014 15:50 Goumindong wrote:
Buy back and teleport and courier negates team map pressure and movement strategies.
You're going to have tout some pretty impressive theorycraft about a game you don't play to convince me on this one because empirically there is nothing further from the truth. he's also going to need to show some serious proof that the option to adjust high ground miss chance vanished from the global variables part of the war3 editor. I ignored the high ground miss chance part because honestly, that topic got talked to death at SC2's inception, with no real definitive conclusion.
Oh i'm not talking about whether its positive or negative for the game. only his claim that its only in there because its a result of the warcraft 3 engine. you can set high ground miss chance to 0 or even 100% on any map you want. its at 50% because icf frog wanted it at 50%.
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On October 11 2014 15:51 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:48 cLutZ wrote:
I saw a lot of people were talking about potential Ryze changes (nerfs). I think the very fact that they are targeting his scaling shows us the direction they intend to go in. That is, they cannot figure out how to properly balance ranged and melee in the top lane, and cant make a strong earlygame champion fall off properly. So, I expect more of the "normal" tops to be the desired goal of Riot next season. it could also be a result of most jungles wont be able to early gank outside of a couple. and not being able to punish his early game is a reason for the change
That might be a possible explanation if Nasus, Amumu, and Yi were the jungles driving this change, but it is Lee, Khazix, and Elise.
No the problem is that no champions that lose the early game by any significant margin are competitively relevant, so those that do have strong mid or later game power end up becoming the fotm champions.
Like someone said, Renekton was the last super good early game top, and he was so good that in any matchup against equally skilled players, his early advantage would last till at least 35 minutes.
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On October 11 2014 16:04 cLutZ wrote:
That might be a possible explanation if Nasus, Amumu, and Yi were the jungles driving this change, but it is Lee, Khazix, and Elise.
No the problem is that no champions that lose the early game by any significant margin are competitively relevant, so those that do have strong mid or later game power end up becoming the fotm champions.
Like someone said, Renekton was the last super good early game top, and he was so good that in any matchup against equally skilled players, his early advantage would last till at least 35 minutes.
No i mean. in the new jungle. you really can't gank early outside of a couple junglers. you get super super low.and miss out on alot of xp. not to mention buffs dont spawn until 2:30.
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well thanks for agreeing with me I guess, but calling hitting skillshots and picking up on player patterns as well as training players to react to you a certian way RNG, pretty sure this is proven false simply by how some players have consistantly beaten others but ok lol
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On October 11 2014 16:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
i never understood the hate against RNG in league. skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance.
There are some scenarios where it has disproportionate impact on the gameplay (mainly early game laning crits) coupled with it being tied to aspects of the game that are not directly controllable by you as a player (the other guy's rune page).
High ground miss chance is fine because being terrain-based means that it's controllable while setting up interesting positioning play on certain parts of the map (the existence of wards in a MOBA limits the efficacy of a vision-only high ground advantage like the one in SC2), while not having too large of an impact in scenarios that can not directly be controlled by the player. Countermeasures also exist in the game through itemization options if it's necessary in a particular situation. Analogous non-RNG mechanics that could accomplish the same thing are not nearly as transparent or intuitive.
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On October 11 2014 15:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:50 Goumindong wrote:
Buy back and teleport and courier negates team map pressure and movement strategies.
You're going to have tout some pretty impressive theorycraft about a game you don't play to convince me on this one because empirically there is nothing further from the truth.
Teleport and courier lets you stay on the map far longer than if you didn't have those things, often stalling out, and making harder to punish. But, I'd still say there are big enough map movement gaps even with these two things that they can still be punished, aka RAT DOTO.
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On October 11 2014 16:07 Slusher wrote:
well thanks for agreeing with me I guess, but calling hitting skillshots and picking up on player patterns as well as training players to react to you a certian way RNG, pretty sure this is proven false simply by how some players have consistantly beaten others but ok lol
inherently every player has the option of dodging one way or the opposite. so unless you hit specific situations (which is what most players who hit almost all of their skillshots do) like on a stunned target, or when they are up against a wall or when if they juke one direction they will die anyway, all other skillshots are a guess on which way they will dodge, or if they will at all. and altering your guess based on their past behavior isn't much different from the PRD making it more/less likely for you to crit based on the past behavior of the crit.
while yes low values of crit can cause dumb situations using that to explain that all crits are bad isn't always going to be right. radiation is bad for you but its also very useful when used properly.
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On October 11 2014 15:21 Goumindong wrote:
I wouldn't say DotA does everything worse. But the art direction and strategic structure are clearly worse (larger map, buy back, secret shop, courier, tank/damage on every stat, the host of other design decisions that were made during all stars because it was "cool"), the legacy systems from Warcraft 3 need to be updated/removed
Almost most of all I can't stand champion turn speed. But that is just me.
Amen to that.
I tried DotA and had exactly same feelings. Especially cumbersome heroes movement was something really off putting. LoL is ahead of DotA in terms of gameplay dynamic and playability.
P.S. Also, I heard a lot about DotA superior graphics - I just don't see this, LoL graphic is much more clearer and pleasant for the eye. DotA graphics seems a little bit blurry.
Literally all of my friends, except one dude, play LoL instead of DotA - despite trying both games.
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On October 11 2014 16:06 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 16:04 cLutZ wrote:
That might be a possible explanation if Nasus, Amumu, and Yi were the jungles driving this change, but it is Lee, Khazix, and Elise.
No the problem is that no champions that lose the early game by any significant margin are competitively relevant, so those that do have strong mid or later game power end up becoming the fotm champions.
Like someone said, Renekton was the last super good early game top, and he was so good that in any matchup against equally skilled players, his early advantage would last till at least 35 minutes. No i mean. in the new jungle. you really can't gank early outside of a couple junglers. you get super super low.and miss out on alot of xp. not to mention buffs dont spawn until 2:30.
I doubt that level of foresight of involved, or even needed to decide there should be ryze changes.
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On October 11 2014 16:10 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 16:07 Slusher wrote:
well thanks for agreeing with me I guess, but calling hitting skillshots and picking up on player patterns as well as training players to react to you a certian way RNG, pretty sure this is proven false simply by how some players have consistantly beaten others but ok lol inherently every player has the option of dodging one way or the opposite. so unless you hit specific situations (which is what most players who hit almost all of their skillshots do) like on a stunned target, or when they are up against a wall or when if they juke one direction they will die anyway, all other skillshots are a guess on which way they will dodge, or if they will at all.
Ehhh, it really depends though, with champs like thresh/elise/blitz, you can bait out so many things if you play out the stun correctly. Like madlife figured out you have a larger hitbox if you throw the hooks out diagonally, and predicting enemy cooldowns on flash, and their distances. It's pretty crazy how all these small things can actually make your opponent think they're in control, when they're actually playing into your hands.
On October 11 2014 16:10 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:21 Goumindong wrote:
I wouldn't say DotA does everything worse. But the art direction and strategic structure are clearly worse (larger map, buy back, secret shop, courier, tank/damage on every stat, the host of other design decisions that were made during all stars because it was "cool"), the legacy systems from Warcraft 3 need to be updated/removed
Almost most of all I can't stand champion turn speed. But that is just me. Amen to that. I tried DotA and had exactly same feelings. Especially cumbersome heroes movement was something really off putting. LoL is ahead of DotA in terms of gameplay dynamic and playability. P.S. Also, I heard a lot about DotA superior graphics - I just don't see this, LoL graphic is much more clearer and pleasant for the eye. DotA graphics seems a little bit blurry. Literally all of my friends, except one dude, play LoL instead of DotA - despite trying both games.
Dota feels clunky because of turn speed, but the actual controls are 100% sharp, it just plays to mechanics of the game.
As far as in game art design, I sort of wish they kept a lot of the WC3 models, I really liked them, and some of them changed too much for my tastes. In terms of skill distinctions I don't have much of an issue with Dota, everything has a slightly darker theme, but I wouldn't say any of the spells are hard to see. They're much more distinct than HoN, which was just shiny shit.
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On October 11 2014 16:09 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:55 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2014 15:50 Goumindong wrote:
Buy back and teleport and courier negates team map pressure and movement strategies.
You're going to have tout some pretty impressive theorycraft about a game you don't play to convince me on this one because empirically there is nothing further from the truth. Teleport and courier lets you stay on the map far longer than if you didn't have those things, often stalling out, and making harder to punish. But, I'd still say there are big enough map movement gaps even with these two things that they can still be punished, aka RAT DOTO.
How does this have to do with what he said, lol.
On October 11 2014 16:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
while yes low values of crit can cause dumb situations using that to explain that all crits are bad isn't always going to be right. radiation is bad for you but its also very useful when used properly.
The implication he made before when this topic came up last time was that the nature of teamfights in League is such that the number of involved autoattacks/timescale are such that the PRD is not practically manipulable because "waiting" for an almost assured crit after 5-6 attacks at moderate crit values is still not practically possible--which I consider to be pretty questionable, but whatever.
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On October 11 2014 16:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 16:09 wei2coolman wrote:On October 11 2014 15:55 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2014 15:50 Goumindong wrote:
Buy back and teleport and courier negates team map pressure and movement strategies.
You're going to have tout some pretty impressive theorycraft about a game you don't play to convince me on this one because empirically there is nothing further from the truth. Teleport and courier lets you stay on the map far longer than if you didn't have those things, often stalling out, and making harder to punish. But, I'd still say there are big enough map movement gaps even with these two things that they can still be punished, aka RAT DOTO. How does this have to do with what he said, lol.
it's not hard to imagine... Imagine doto with no tp scrolls/buy backs/couriers. Every time someone backs, the enemy team can have way more map pressure, it's essentially a 5v4 on the map for the entire duration of whenever it takes the other person to get back on the field. VS current Dodo, which allows for TP/buyback/courier, that means there's less likelyhood of a 5v4 power play.
If you ever watch hockey, that's essentially a powerplay when the opponent has someone serving out a penalty, and there's a player # mismatch. Couriers/teleport/buybacks essentially shorten penalty duration significantly in this analogy.
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On October 11 2014 16:20 wei2coolman wrote:
it's not hard to imagine... Imagine doto with no tp scrolls/buy backs/couriers. Every time someone backs, the enemy team can have way more map pressure, it's essentially a 5v4 on the map for the entire duration of whenever it takes the other person to get back on the field. VS current Dodo, which allows for TP/buyback/courier, that means there's less likelyhood of a 5v4 power play.
If you ever watch hockey, that's essentially a powerplay when the opponent has someone serving out a penalty, and there's a player # mismatch. Couriers/teleport/buybacks essentially shorten penalty duration significantly in this analogy.
So recall is also a problem? or what?
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Except TP has a CD of over a minute, so putting TPs on CD already allows for map pressure in the way you describe. TP CDs limiting particular players' map movement in the short term is precisely used for this all the time at all levels of DotA play.
Saying that TPs being in the game prevents that kind of power play is as asinine as a brainless DotA player saying that Flash makes ganking useless.
It's also matches what I said exactly a page ago about the larger map being necessary to prevent the game from becoming too claustrophobic with these options in play.
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On October 11 2014 16:23 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 16:20 wei2coolman wrote:
it's not hard to imagine... Imagine doto with no tp scrolls/buy backs/couriers. Every time someone backs, the enemy team can have way more map pressure, it's essentially a 5v4 on the map for the entire duration of whenever it takes the other person to get back on the field. VS current Dodo, which allows for TP/buyback/courier, that means there's less likelyhood of a 5v4 power play.
If you ever watch hockey, that's essentially a powerplay when the opponent has someone serving out a penalty, and there's a player # mismatch. Couriers/teleport/buybacks essentially shorten penalty duration significantly in this analogy. So recall is also a problem? or what?
Yeah, recall also has the problem,and early game teleport also. But, I will say League's small map, also makes it insanely easy to punish mistimed recalls in the midgame. I'm not saying any of Dota's mechanics are bad, or lead to lack of punishment for backing. I'm just saying Goumindog isn't completely off basis when he says these item/gameplay mechanics prevent punishment. I think Dota teams have figured out ways to play around these mechanics to get things done. The problem is, sometimes it's rat dota that happens.
On October 11 2014 16:24 TheYango wrote:
Except TP has a CD of over a minute, so putting TPs on CD already allows for map pressure in the way you describe. TP CDs limiting particular players' map movement in the short term is precisely used for this all the time at all levels of DotA play.
Saying that TPs being in the game prevents that kind of power play is as asinine as a brainless DotA player saying that Flash makes ganking useless.
It's also matches what I said exactly a page ago about the larger map being necessary to prevent the game from becoming too claustrophobic with these options in play.
TP in isolation isn't, but I think an argument could be made about TP+Courier+Buyback as a combo could be a bit too much. Even in LoL in the 1v1 in top lane, you can see how powerful TP+recall is, in comparison to vs just Recall+offensive summoner.
On October 11 2014 15:44 Jek wrote:Holy moly, Gangplank's ultimate is now litterally a global Rumble ult with IMO a better shape. Just come from a game where a toplane Gangplank wrecked us in botlane by just casually throwing an ult at our poor adc in the epicenter whenever it was off cooldown. I reckon he had flat CDR glyphs and quints, it was litterally one every single minute. Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:34 krndandaman wrote:
playing sion in normals has one of the most fun i've had on league in a while. the champ is so fucking troll lmao Ever since the remake playing as Sion, with Sion or against Sion leads to some hilarious games. :D
time to buy liandries+sorc shoes+voidstaff on gp.
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On October 11 2014 15:50 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 15:23 PrinceXizor wrote:
... I actually cant say that any of those things you listed are negative. most are pretty positive. some are neutral...
saying they are clearly worse is just your opinion. Yes but some people don't think that high contrast colors are important and think that having multiple colors instead of static icons is a good thing too. So you can see how much your input matters on these issues. The only thing that is opinion really is turn speed. That is a personal preference of mine. Buy back and teleport and courier negates team map pressure and movement strategies. Kind of like how the teleport CD reduction when used on a tower negated top lane pressure strategies. Secret shop is useless burdensome knowledge. The legacy WC3 shit is terrible (high ground miss chance! It's like crit but worse and for everyone!) and serves no purpose but to be there because it was a limitation of the map modification system in WC 3. It would be like league adding mechanics from Starcraft just because.
no miss chance is something that killed sc2 for me tbh. It can be frustrating in Dota but theres alot more things that annoy me more than miss chance.
getting perma bashed perma missing shit like that is way worse than miss chance, but its part of the game and i like it alot.
Not going to talk about crit, because i think its a good mechanic tbh.
Alot of things bother me in league but the lack of item diversity is what kills me the worst. and what has ultimately turned me off to league and more into dota recently
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On October 11 2014 16:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
i never understood the hate against RNG in league. skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance.
No. Skillshots are in both players control in multiple ways. (how and when you shoot them determines the enemies possible avoidance paths which means that skillshots can be aimed to be unavoidable and aimed to force enemy movement to move advantageous positions). Players can be better at avoiding and shooting skill shots. Its not random in the least.
On October 11 2014 16:01 TheYango wrote:
I ignored the high ground miss chance part because honestly, that topic got talked to death at SC2's inception, with no real definitive conclusion.
Its different in an RTS where you've typically got enough units for the miss chance to even out very quickly though hysteresis is still a potential issue.
Its the difference between an average and a sum. With the same probability the average converges but the sum is a random walk, and random walks don't converge. This is important because fights are not won be averaging a teams damage, but by summing it. Normalization makes this a bit better, but not much.
On October 11 2014 16:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
Oh i'm not talking about whether its positive or negative for the game. only his claim that its only in there because its a result of the warcraft 3 engine. you can set high ground miss chance to 0 or even 100% on any map you want. its at 50% because icf frog wanted it at 50%.
Ice Frog wasn't even a developer when miss chance entered into DoTA. And if you're wondering i believe it was 2003 when that was editable with the release of Frozen Throne expanded the world editor. Sure they could have taken it out. They could have taken a lot of things out. They still can. They haven't. That doesn't mean those systems aren't legacy.
On October 11 2014 16:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 16:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
i never understood the hate against RNG in league. skillshots are inherently out of your control whether they hit or not as well except in certain situations. predicting the behavior of your opponent is as random or guess based as the PRD of crit chance. a weighted chance based on past performance. There are some scenarios where it has disproportionate impact on the gameplay (mainly early game laning crits) coupled with it being tied to aspects of the game that are not directly controllable by you as a player (the other guy's rune page). High ground miss chance is fine because being terrain-based means that it's controllable while setting up interesting positioning play on certain parts of the map (the existence of wards in a MOBA limits the efficacy of a vision-only high ground advantage like the one in SC2), while not having too large of an impact in scenarios that can not directly be controlled by the player. Countermeasures also exist in the game through itemization options if it's necessary in a particular situation. Analogous non-RNG mechanics that could accomplish the same thing are not nearly as transparent or intuitive.
Damage reduction is just as transparent as intuitive without any of the randomness
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United States47024 Posts
Goumindoug I'm curious about your opinion about Poker as a competitive game given your apparent disdain for RNG-based mechanics.
EDIT: Though that's not appropriate for this thread, so PM me your answer, lol.
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Ice frog is the reason its in the map now. ice frog is the reason dota has become as competitive as it is. if he wanted to remove miss chance he's has hundreds of opportunities. and he has not. i removed miss chance from maps myself, its one of the easiest things to do. its easier to remove miss chance than make a working summon. and thats saying something.
it doesn't matter its origin. all that matters is that every version went by in dota and it wasn't removed. its intended. its not a holdover. a holdover would be DOta 2's UI.
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EPT
