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On October 06 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed. I dunno. If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true.
Spellthief is definitely better in the ideal situation which you can poke a lot. When Spellthief is on a support such such capabilities (e.g. Morgana and her W), it's extremely potent and definitely better than Coin.
Janna's kit does not work well with Spellthief at all. Yes, you can definitely shield yourself and run in, but against most other lanes you will get out traded even if you shield yourself because your range is too low and you don't actually do much damage.
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On October 06 2014 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed. I dunno. If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true. Spellthief is definitely better in the ideal situation which you can poke a lot. When Spellthief is on a support such such capabilities (e.g. Morgana and her W), it's extremely potent and definitely better than Coin. Janna's kit does not work well with Spellthief at all. Yes, you can definitely shield yourself and run in, but against most other lanes you will get out traded even if you shield yourself because your range is too low and you don't actually do much damage.
the only lane that she gets out traded when playing aggressive is nami... Everything else should be avoidable if played best.
So in theory.
If you're good, go spellthief (except against good nami).
if you're bad, go coin, cuz it's idiot proof.
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The only supports that Talisman is good on anymore really are supports who really value HP regen and don't trade much in lane or want Relic Shield.
Which would be like, Soraka only.
Riot designed the GP10 items with the mindset that there were 3 kinds of support, and each would want one of the items. Tanky supports would want Relic Shield, mage type harass/poke supports would want Spellthief, and passive sustain supports would want Coin.
But the reality is that the "passive sustain" support style is boring and not really as good as trading with your opponent. Soraka is the only support that really remains who has that playstyle.
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On October 06 2014 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On October 06 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed. I dunno. If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true. Spellthief is definitely better in the ideal situation which you can poke a lot. When Spellthief is on a support such such capabilities (e.g. Morgana and her W), it's extremely potent and definitely better than Coin. Janna's kit does not work well with Spellthief at all. Yes, you can definitely shield yourself and run in, but against most other lanes you will get out traded even if you shield yourself because your range is too low and you don't actually do much damage. the only lane that she gets out traded when playing aggressive is nami... Everything else should be avoidable if played best. So in theory. If you're good, go spellthief (except against good nami). if you're bad, go coin, cuz it's idiot proof.
You will actually get out traded by anyone ranged unless it's a Morgana/Thresh with no brain. Your range is too short and the opposing ADC can easily punish you. If you get in a 2v2 you automatically lose because you shielded yourself instead of your ADC.
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On October 06 2014 02:17 Ketara wrote:
The only supports that Talisman is good on anymore really are supports who really value HP regen and don't trade much in lane or want Relic Shield.
Which would be like, Soraka only.
Riot designed the GP10 items with the mindset that there were 3 kinds of support, and each would want one of the items. Tanky supports would want Relic Shield, mage type harass/poke supports would want Spellthief, and passive sustain supports would want Coin.
But the reality is that the "passive sustain" support style is boring and not really as good as trading with your opponent. Soraka is the only support that really remains who has that playstyle.
Nah, Coin is also good in situations where you're in a losing lane matchup that'll cause your lane to be shoved in under turret, or you're just aiming to play it out super passive.
On October 06 2014 02:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2014 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On October 06 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed. I dunno. If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true. Spellthief is definitely better in the ideal situation which you can poke a lot. When Spellthief is on a support such such capabilities (e.g. Morgana and her W), it's extremely potent and definitely better than Coin. Janna's kit does not work well with Spellthief at all. Yes, you can definitely shield yourself and run in, but against most other lanes you will get out traded even if you shield yourself because your range is too low and you don't actually do much damage. the only lane that she gets out traded when playing aggressive is nami... Everything else should be avoidable if played best. So in theory. If you're good, go spellthief (except against good nami). if you're bad, go coin, cuz it's idiot proof. You will actually get out traded by anyone ranged unless it's a Morgana/Thresh with no brain. Your range is too short and the opposing ADC can easily punish you. If you get in a 2v2 you automatically lose because you shielded yourself instead of your ADC.
Except this hasn't been true at all, even in janna's we've seen in the 2v2 lane at World's.
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On October 06 2014 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:14 Sufficiency wrote:On October 06 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed. I dunno. If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true. Spellthief is definitely better in the ideal situation which you can poke a lot. When Spellthief is on a support such such capabilities (e.g. Morgana and her W), it's extremely potent and definitely better than Coin. Janna's kit does not work well with Spellthief at all. Yes, you can definitely shield yourself and run in, but against most other lanes you will get out traded even if you shield yourself because your range is too low and you don't actually do much damage. the only lane that she gets out traded when playing aggressive is nami... Everything else should be avoidable if played best. So in theory. If you're good, go spellthief (except against good nami). if you're bad, go coin, cuz it's idiot proof.
I'd like to be one of those idiot challenger Janna mains. Imagine if they could learn to use the strengths of this overly complicated item... they'd be like surrounded by korean player-scouts with offers they could surely not refuse.
Anyway, I'm done, bunch of people who might not even play at bot, let alone support, let alone main (or play a lot) Janna enlightening us that spellthief>coin, because look at the pros man! 1 month ago, they would've said Janna is just not good, because look at the pros man, which one of them is playing her?
And good for you for outrading a Sona with Janna, this next level discussion is really not for me.
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At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
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On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
Rip Lucian?
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On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
and in the end all i see is "i buy coin cuz i like it better in solo q".
difference? pros are more likely to play optimally.
truth is i buy coin on janna cuz i have no idea how to play it in lane well. but, it's pretty clear in high level play, spell thief is the ideal pickup even in 2v2 lanes.
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On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
At the end all I see is still "At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna"".
I can be pedantic, dismissive, and avoid reading reasoning(even if I disagree with it) too.
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On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
Are you serious?
I wrote like a page long post about it that had nothing to do with "pros buy Spellthief for Janna".
At this point you're ignoring the mathematical argument, the common sense argument AND the "that's what the pros do" argument.
I feel like I'm pretty liberal in terms of LoL build orders, and in a lot of cases I think people do what feels comfortable and don't try to figure out what's best, because what's best is often probably only 1 or 2% better than what's comfortable and doesn't actually make extreme differences in games. I go for a lot of interesting build crap on this forum.
But in this case you are just wrong.
Or how about this. Why don't you give us an argument for Coin other than that you think it feels better.
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On October 06 2014 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna". and in the end all i see is "i buy coin cuz i like it better in solo q". difference? pros are more likely to play optimally. truth is i buy coin on janna cuz i have no idea how to play it in lane well. but, it's pretty clear in high level play, spell thief is the ideal pickup even in 2v2 lanes.
No. My argument is that Spellthief is better on paper, but due to Janna's kit being different Morgana/Nami, it's very hard for her to use Spellthief to the theoretical potential.
Spellthief is a good item, it's just that Janna kit does not work too well with it.
Every time I go to this point someone says "BUT PROS DO IT".
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On October 06 2014 02:27 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna". and in the end all i see is "i buy coin cuz i like it better in solo q". difference? pros are more likely to play optimally. truth is i buy coin on janna cuz i have no idea how to play it in lane well. but, it's pretty clear in high level play, spell thief is the ideal pickup even in 2v2 lanes. No. My argument is that Spellthief is better on paper, but due to Janna's kit being different Morgana/Nami, it's very hard for her to use Spellthief to the theoretical potential. Spellthief is a good item, it's just that Janna kit does not work too well with it. Every time I go to this point someone says "BUT PROS DO IT".
There's a difference between "this is why pros do it", and "because pros do it".
of which, it's because pros know how to optimally play janna in lane to get the max affect of spellthief.
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How is it hard for Janna to use it to her theoretical potential?
Once every 30 seconds you walk up to the enemy support and auto-W-auto them. It's not hard.
And you only have to be about 80% efficient with Spellthief to get as much gold as Coin, and only 70% efficient for Frostfang to give as much gold as Medallion.
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Guys, do you know anything about Nami ult-Vel'koz skills interactions? I ulted after a Vel'Koz and a Lucian who were running away and my ult disappeared...
I also saw a Yasuo who ulted an akali under her inhibitor turret and the Yasuo was OUT of the base during the animation and when he arrived to the ground as well. The Akali was not near the edge of the wall she was in front of the turret.
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I like how this topic started because sufficiency refused to buy boots on Janna. Which itself is fairly bullshit, and shouldn't be encouraged. Map movement + map warding is key for a support in the first place.
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On October 06 2014 02:26 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:
At the end all I see is still "pros buy Spellthief for Janna". Are you serious? I wrote like a page long post about it that had nothing to do with "pros buy Spellthief for Janna". At this point you're ignoring the mathematical argument, the common sense argument AND the "that's what the pros do" argument. I feel like I'm pretty liberal in terms of LoL build orders, and in a lot of cases I think people do what feels comfortable and don't try to figure out what's best, because what's best is often probably only 1 or 2% better than what's comfortable and doesn't actually make extreme differences in games. I go for a lot of interesting build crap on this forum. But in this case you are just wrong. Or how about this. Why don't you give us an argument for Coin other than that you think it feels better.
I did see her post, but I didn't feel like commenting on it because it has a lot of problems.
#1 - Spellthief gives more gold than Coin.
Coin gives max 4.2 GP10
Spellthief gives max 5 GP10
Actually Spellthief gives 7 GP10 when maximized. It's 2 GP10 ambient plus 5 GP10 from passive. To break even with Coin you need to use the Spellthief passive only 40% of the time. This is why for Morg and Nami Spellthief is way better. But remember you are Janna and each time you poke you have to pay a price.
#2 - Spellthief gives better combat stats.
Coin at max efficiency heals you for about 10.5 HP per 10 seconds.
Spellthief at max efficiency deals 10 damage every 10 seconds, and also gives 5 AP and better tower pushing ability.
Janna doesn't need HP regen as much as other supports, because when she moves in to trade she does it with her shield and ends up not taking as much HP damage, so Spellthief gives her a stronger early lane.
Coin has 1 extra mana per 5. 1 mana per 5 is worth 60 gold, 5 AP is worth 100 gold. It's actually only a 40 gold difference.
Janna does need HP regen. She does not have sustain herself, and if she were to use Spellthief she needs to trade, which is costly for her HP and she needs to chunk potions.
#3 - Frostfang is a better upgrade than Nomads Medallion
Frostfang gets 5 AP, 3 Mana Regen, 5 damage/10 seconds and jumps to 10 GP10 on upgrade.
Medallion gets 10.25 HP Regen, 2 Mana Regen, 10 Movespeed (likely soft capped to 8 or 5), and only goes to 7.3 GP10 on upgrade.
So most of the upgrade on Medallion is in HP Regen and Movespeed, both of which are not super desirable laning stats on Janna. Frostfang gives AP, damage and more GP10.
It's funny you spend 325 gold to buy boots on Janna yet 10 movement speed is not worth it. By the way, both items have 5 Mana regen.
#4 - FQC has a better buildup than Talisman.
Janna likes Fiendish Codex more than Forbidden Idol.
That's absolutely not true. Janna nowadays max Q second and she needs a LOT of mana. Forbidden Idol is just as good of an item as Fiendish Codex.
#5 - FQC has better stats than Talisman.
Later in the game both HP and mana regen fairly pointless on Janna. HP regen sucks, mana regen is good but your other items will also have mana regen and you'll have more than you will need.
FQC has better late game gold generation.
FQC gives 50 AP while Talisman gives 20 movespeed. But this will be reduced to 10 since Janna's movespeed is so absurdly high, and 50 AP gives Janna about 4 movespeed anyway (capped to 2). 50 AP is better than 8 movespeed.
The Talisman active is better for engaging and disengaging, but not tremendously better, and Janna is already probably the best disengage support in the game and isn't really picked in hard engage comps (and hard engage comps typically don't need Talisman to engage anyway). The FQC active increases her damage and pick potential.
Remember back in the day that everyone gets Shurelya's? It's still the active in the game with versatile uses. The FQC active is actually the redundant one for Janna.
Boots again. See above.
FQC's gold generation is definitely worse than Talisman. The ambient gold are the same, but FQC requires you to poke. Good luck with that 20 minutes into the game.
Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks.
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On October 06 2014 02:34 ketchup wrote:
I like how this topic started because sufficiency refused to buy boots on Janna. Which itself is fairly bullshit, and shouldn't be encouraged. Map movement + map warding is key for a support in the first place.
Yes, one of the key point for Talisman is that I can skip boots on Janna.
I am pretty sure Volband agrees with me that skipping boots on Janna is a reasonable choice. It's definitely not bullshit.
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On October 06 2014 02:39 Sufficiency wrote:
#4 - FQC has a better buildup than Talisman.
Janna likes Fiendish Codex more than Forbidden Idol.
That's absolutely not true. Janna nowadays max Q second and she needs a LOT of mana. Forbidden Idol is just as good of an item as Fiendish Codex.
Source? I don't really care for what you are arguing about, but this point you made here is incorrect. What type of Janna maxes Q second? I've seen the majority of Jannas nowadays max E first usually or alternate between W and E.
On October 06 2014 02:40 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 02:34 ketchup wrote:
I like how this topic started because sufficiency refused to buy boots on Janna. Which itself is fairly bullshit, and shouldn't be encouraged. Map movement + map warding is key for a support in the first place. Yes, one of the key point for Talisman is that I can skip boots on Janna. I am pretty sure Volband agrees with me that skipping boots on Janna is a reasonable choice. It's definitely not bullshit.
I don't think even volband would recommend not getting boots on a support. He might defend you on coin, but he probably won't defend you on not buying boots at all.
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Pretty much all pros max w second.I max q second too but saying most jannas max q is just wrong lol.
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EPT
