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On October 05 2014 23:00 739 wrote:
Why would you ever start with coin? Spellthief provides you more combat stats and is nice for trading autoattacks, especially good for Janna, since she can shield and hit few AA's. Don't like coin personally.
I always go for coin, and everytime I give in to the temptation to start with knife I'm so disappointed in myself to give in for the peer pressure for that shit.
Coin >>>>>> spellthief any day for me, I love laning with coin on Janna, and this bandwagoning from people - half of them probably would consider Janna shit tier 1 month ago ,but npnp,, Zilean-effect i nfull force once again - is ridiculous. Like have you ever laned at bot? It makes me question, because if you think spellthief is clearly superior than coin that just spells to me that you never really tried pto play with Janna seriously.
Also, this "just sell the knife" bs... if I want to rush tali, than going on the route of selling the knife for it will just set me back, so please...
I hope Viktor will be a huge fotm, I want Viktor mains to experience this pain of sudden recognition as well. Now I only need a game where I'll be flamed for NOT picking Janna or not buying spellthief and I can say I've come full circle, haha.
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On October 06 2014 01:14 Complete wrote:
honestly I'm not sure it is. Pro games are a whole different beast than solo queue. Just because something is good in a pro game doesn't make it good in solo queue.
on another note, does anybody play ranked 5's a lot? Does it ever balance out in terms of playing people around your own skill level? My team is gold 4 and we still play master/challenger teams, d1 teams, d1-d5 teams more than half our games...
Yea the matchmaking is fucked.I played vs a team of silver 1 players when we were 80p d1 after a 35 minute que.
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On October 06 2014 01:12 Doctorbeat wrote:Tried Ali top for the first time in a looong while, missed all WQ combo's  Is ali top actually good in soloq or only in competitive?
His popularity at worlds revolves around the fact that he can give you an autoattack while knocking the enemy away in patch 4.14. You would rush Sheen and Shiv on him for a burst that would take about a third of the enemies HP off in a single Headbutt. This is against fulltanks like Maokai, mind you.
They removed it in the current live patch, so there is no point in running him anywhere else but support.
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On October 05 2014 20:15 Goumindong wrote:
Shit, no one here believed me when I told them that w max Janna was legit either but Lemon played that shit in quarterfinals.
Rofl, you said w >>> e not that w max can work. Don't boast yourself when we tried to explain you the usage and strengths of E compared to W and you just shat your ears. And now, there was a single game of w max and you try to act as a prophet. Just don't.
On October 06 2014 01:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. all the pros do it is a better argument than your solo q experiences. lol.
Brb, going to play some 2v1 top and encourage all my adcs to pick Twitch.
On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage.
It's fine if you are
- with a decent early game adc
- against a melee support, don't even try it vs a ranged one, unless the player himself sucks ass, but then you might as well pick Teemo support for the lulz
- against weaker early game adcs
I also try to put 3 points in W asap, then switch to shield to maximize it. When it works it can be kewl, but if you want to play it traditionally (E max, no serious ap items beside mejais) it's really underwhelming, unless you absolutely hate Talisman for some reason.
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On October 06 2014 01:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. all the pros do it is a better argument than your solo q experiences. lol.
In an ideal situation which you use Spellthief stacks perfectly (i.e. it never reaches 3 stacks), Spellthief's extra damage equals Coin's extra sustain before resistance, so Coin wins.
In the same ideal situation, Spellthief provides 7 GP10. Coin provides slightly more than 4 GP10. In the GP10 aspect Spellthief wins.
Spellthief also provides 5 AP, but Coin has an extra mana per 5. Spellthief wins here by 40 gold worth.
The problem is that Spellthief only wins if you can use it efficiently, i.e. use up all stacks before it caps. This is extremely difficult for Janna because she does not have good pokes and her auto range is very poor. It also forces you to play in an aggressive way which you may not always want. Furthermore, because you got no health sustain from Spellthief and that using stacks usually involves some form of trading, once you are low you are essentially forced to recall.
Overall, Spellthief is better in the best case scenario, but in practice it sucks for Janna because her kit is different from Morgana/Nami/Zyra.
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However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway.
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On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway.
Or you can buy Coin and start with 1 ward 2 pots, which is far safer in lane.
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On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway.
yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in
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On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway.
Because you want to force all in with Janna...
Even with W max and spellthief and ignite, you have a poor all in potential compared to Nami/Sona/Lulu or the mage supports, and even that mediocre all-in strength gets immensly weaker by every single level. You either force a kill on them somehow by lvl 3 or you will be wishing you started with coin and e max.
Unless you don't give a crap about t3 gold items, you just want a bit more presence early on, then by all means, take spellthief.
On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in
Spellthief gives extra damage to your spells and autos as long as you have charges. But yeah, still nothing OMGSOMUCHDMG, it is very nice for supports like sona who just unleashes tons of damage on you from relative safety, but Janna? Nah, complete worthlessness vs ranged supports.
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On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in
Yeah that 30 damage every time you trade before you drain your pots so useless!
Or you can just use your trinket wards well and you don't need wards if you are gonna play safe anyway.
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On October 06 2014 01:44 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in Yeah that 30 damage every time you trade before you drain your pots so useless! Or you can just use your trinket wards well and you don't need wards if you are gonna play safe anyway.
1 min wards with 3 min cd. That's not safety.
I always start with 4 pots 0 ward, but I know very well that relying on the trinket ward is stupid. If you want safety, start with a ward, if you want more presence, don't start with one. (yeah, sometimes proper vision grants more rpesence, but c'mon now)
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Oh and wat do vs Gnar. It's like they made Teemo but more fucking annoying.
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On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage.
#1 - Spellthief gives more gold than Coin.
Coin gives max 4.2 GP10
Spellthief gives max 5 GP10
#2 - Spellthief gives better combat stats.
Coin at max efficiency heals you for about 10.5 HP per 10 seconds.
Spellthief at max efficiency deals 10 damage every 10 seconds, and also gives 5 AP and better tower pushing ability.
Janna doesn't need HP regen as much as other supports, because when she moves in to trade she does it with her shield and ends up not taking as much HP damage, so Spellthief gives her a stronger early lane.
#3 - Frostfang is a better upgrade than Nomads Medallion
Frostfang gets 5 AP, 3 Mana Regen, 5 damage/10 seconds and jumps to 10 GP10 on upgrade.
Medallion gets 10.25 HP Regen, 2 Mana Regen, 10 Movespeed (likely soft capped to 8 or 5), and only goes to 7.3 GP10 on upgrade.
So most of the upgrade on Medallion is in HP Regen and Movespeed, both of which are not super desirable laning stats on Janna. Frostfang gives AP, damage and more GP10.
#4 - FQC has a better buildup than Talisman.
Janna likes Fiendish Codex more than Forbidden Idol.
#5 - FQC has better stats than Talisman.
Later in the game both HP and mana regen fairly pointless on Janna. HP regen sucks, mana regen is good but your other items will also have mana regen and you'll have more than you will need.
FQC has better late game gold generation.
FQC gives 50 AP while Talisman gives 20 movespeed. But this will be reduced to 10 since Janna's movespeed is so absurdly high, and 50 AP gives Janna about 4 movespeed anyway (capped to 2). 50 AP is better than 8 movespeed.
The Talisman active is better for engaging and disengaging, but not tremendously better, and Janna is already probably the best disengage support in the game and isn't really picked in hard engage comps (and hard engage comps typically don't need Talisman to engage anyway). The FQC active increases her damage and pick potential.
Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks.
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On October 06 2014 01:47 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:44 nafta wrote:On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in Yeah that 30 damage every time you trade before you drain your pots so useless! Or you can just use your trinket wards well and you don't need wards if you are gonna play safe anyway. 1 min wards with 3 min cd. That's not safety.
I always start with 4 pots 0 ward, but I know very well that relying on the trinket ward is stupid. If you want safety, start with a ward, if you want more presence, don't start with one. (yeah, sometimes proper vision grants more rpesence, but c'mon now)
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trinket_item
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On October 06 2014 01:49 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:47 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:44 nafta wrote:On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in Yeah that 30 damage every time you trade before you drain your pots so useless! Or you can just use your trinket wards well and you don't need wards if you are gonna play safe anyway. 1 min wards with 3 min cd. That's not safety.
I always start with 4 pots 0 ward, but I know very well that relying on the trinket ward is stupid. If you want safety, start with a ward, if you want more presence, don't start with one. (yeah, sometimes proper vision grants more rpesence, but c'mon now) http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trinket_item
Ok, you will only have blind bushes for a min instead of two. How reassuring, especially if you are blu side and the enemy can come from 3 different spots and you only have those 2 trinket wards, one that the adcs sometimes forget to use.
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On October 06 2014 01:53 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:49 nafta wrote:On October 06 2014 01:47 Volband wrote:On October 06 2014 01:44 nafta wrote:On October 06 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:On October 06 2014 01:36 nafta wrote:
However getting extra damage for the all in is much stronger than sustain for someone who starts with 3 potions anyway. yes that 5 ap gives a whole 8 points of damage over your entire kit. Surely the difference in a all in Yeah that 30 damage every time you trade before you drain your pots so useless! Or you can just use your trinket wards well and you don't need wards if you are gonna play safe anyway. 1 min wards with 3 min cd. That's not safety.
I always start with 4 pots 0 ward, but I know very well that relying on the trinket ward is stupid. If you want safety, start with a ward, if you want more presence, don't start with one. (yeah, sometimes proper vision grants more rpesence, but c'mon now) http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Trinket_item Ok, you will only have blind bushes for a min instead of two. How reassuring, especially if you are blu side and the enemy can come from 3 different spots and you only have those 2 trinket wards, one that the adcs sometimes forget to use.
If you are playing passive and getting pushed in you can just ward with your ad and have one side covered 100% of the time and just position accordingly.
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On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks.
There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed.
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On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed.
I dunno.
If it looks better on paper, and if it's what all the pros build all of the time, it's probably better.
If either one of those statements wasn't true I'd consider a contrary argument, but in this case they are both true.
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On October 06 2014 01:54 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:49 Ketara wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. Basically, it's just better. If it doesn't feel better to you that probably means that you aren't being aggressive enough with your spellthief stacks. There are many things which work on paper. Spellthief on Janan is one of them. But go ahead, trade with that Nami with your spellthief, she will be impressed.
How are you even arguing this? Hasn't there been enough nami vs janna lanes in worlds?
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On October 06 2014 01:21 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 01:10 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2014 00:57 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to hear a legit argument of spellthief over talisman for Janna that does not involve "all the pros do it".
I have tried spellthief on Janna. I think it is pure garbage. all the pros do it is a better argument than your solo q experiences. lol. Brb, going to play some 2v1 top and encourage all my adcs to pick Twitch.
This is literally what sneaky and lemonnation every time they duo'd. Probably why c9's laneswaps are so much better than any other NA team.
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EPT
