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On September 26 2014 13:25 Vaporized wrote:
i was by no means a viktor 'main' before this change, but i had certainly played him a fair amount. i think this rework is one of riots best. they took a clunky, confused kit and made something much, much better.
this kit is a HUGE improvement. he feels much more fluid to play now, and i thought it was a blast. getting an upgraded w, into an e-r felt awesome. after you blow your big combo you can run around the outskirts of a fight with q and chunk squishies for 1/3 of their health.
i also am confused about calling lich bane a trap item. i rushed it and it seemed pretty good.
Probably as good as stacked Phantom Dancers on Hecarim...
EDIT: To be clear, I dont have an opinion on the item, I just dont think the poster is credible at all.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/lol-strategy/341191-champion-hecarim#1
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On September 26 2014 13:25 Vaporized wrote:
i was by no means a viktor 'main' before this change, but i had certainly played him a fair amount. i think this rework is one of riots best. they took a clunky, confused kit and made something much, much better.
this kit is a HUGE improvement. he feels much more fluid to play now, and i thought it was a blast. getting an upgraded w, into an e-r felt awesome. after you blow your big combo you can run around the outskirts of a fight with q and chunk squishies for 1/3 of their health.
i also am confused about calling lich bane a trap item. i rushed it and it seemed pretty good.
Because it doesn't do as much damage as people think it does. They see big damage on the Q but fail to see how much they lose on his E and R, which is the core if his damage
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Goumindong, I think the big problem that you're having with the Viktor rework is you're trying to see him in the context of the old Viktor.
Old Viktor had one ridiculous ability (laser) and really nobody cared about anything else in the kit. He had a strong power spike with death augment, and if he didn't do anything with it he fell off real hard.
It's true that they nerfed the laser and this power spike (although not by much), but everything else in the kit, including the Hex Core, has been buffed a lot. On the whole he has been buffed a LOT.
There are a lot of things that are just plain fallacious in your argument, and probably the biggest of them is the idea that the new Hex Core is bad or not an efficient first buy. You say in your argument that in order for the Hex Core to feel like a powerful item, it needs to be more gold efficient than similar pricepoint items, and yet it is not. However, this is not true. While the new Hex Core is not quite as cost efficient as the old Death Augment at one upgrade, it's still more cost efficient than anything else you could be buying at every upgrade stage, making it still the logical choice to rush.
It is honestly difficult for me to even pay any attention to the rest of the argument after that, because your statements about the Hex Core are just so blatantly, absurdly wrong.
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On September 26 2014 12:17 TheYango wrote:As I mentioned with your last big design post, I feel like the General LoL Official Forums are actually a less likely way to get yourself heard than Reddit. Even though they're technically "official", Reddit's popularity is going to make top-of-Reddit discussions way more visible than stuff on the official forums.
but you can advertise and demand upvotes on the league forums without being banned, unlike reddit.
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On September 26 2014 13:19 Goragoth wrote:
I think it's tough to judge EDG after their groupstage performance and I'd be cautious of jumping to conclusions. If that was EDG giving it their best then sure, it looked pretty bad. But given the make-up of their group they had the option to put in a ton of effort and best case split 1-1 with SSW and then lose the tiebreaker and finish second, or coast through the group doing the bare minimum and make it through second anyway, which I think is what we saw. Group stage games in any sport can be deceptive that way. I still think the most likely semifinals is SSW/SSB and NJWS/EDG with an all-Korea finals. It is just a shame that we (most likely) won't get to see a Bo5 series between a CN team and an LCS team.
Given their group it looks pretty bad that they had to play a tiebreak to get out of it. Again that does not allude to them being some shit team (AHQ is probably relative strength to top3 NA/EU) but the bill of goods the people who are (not overboard) upset about was the KR>CN>>>>>>>NA=EU that the China edition of SI tried to sell us.
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Isn't the whole point of the Hex Core to be (as an item) not 100% slot efficient per upgrade in gold (when compared to items in a similar price range), and that the trade-off is that with every upgrade you get to augment/evolve a skill?
I mean, at the end of the upgrade (and reaching level 18) you spent 3k gold and get 168 AP, +500 Mana and 3 Evolution Points? Compare it to similar items: Rabadons is more expensive (by 400) and gives similar AP values when it's the only AP item you have at that moment. Rabadons only gives more AP once you have a second AP item like Zhonyas or Void Staff.
And even without the evolution point thing, you are telling me that you can't think of a single AP champ that would pay 3k for +500 MP and (I'll be conservative with this number) 150 AP? Hell, it seems pretty slot efficient to me once you sink the gold into it.
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almost every mid tear is bad on lol (it's closer to 130 ap but yea)
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On September 26 2014 13:32 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 13:25 Vaporized wrote:
i was by no means a viktor 'main' before this change, but i had certainly played him a fair amount. i think this rework is one of riots best. they took a clunky, confused kit and made something much, much better.
this kit is a HUGE improvement. he feels much more fluid to play now, and i thought it was a blast. getting an upgraded w, into an e-r felt awesome. after you blow your big combo you can run around the outskirts of a fight with q and chunk squishies for 1/3 of their health.
i also am confused about calling lich bane a trap item. i rushed it and it seemed pretty good.
Because it doesn't do as much damage as people think it does. They see big damage on the Q but fail to see how much they lose on his E and R, which is the core if his damage
ah, i see what you mean. i think using one item slot on lich bane, to make q such a powerhouse ability might actually be worth it. but i haven't tried not building it.
I had a full build, about 700 ap, and e and r did quite a bit of damage on their own. I will say his power curve felt much different. e wasn't chunking as hard in the beginning, but i felt like I was getting stronger as the game kept going on. which wasn't quite the case on old viktor.
i will def. play more of him, and try some different builds.
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One thing I think is really interesting about new Viktor is I think he'll want CDR boots over spell pen boots.
CDR looks ridiculously good on his new kit, but since the Hex Core gives a big chunk of mana he doesn't really have synergy with any of the 20% CDR items, since they all give more regen than he'll likely need.
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If I was to get a 20% CDR item on him I think it'd be Morellos, as it isn't a big gold investment, gives just enough regen, and be able to get a fair bit of use out of the Morellos burn.
I haven't played as the new Viktor, but in theory I'd build him with Morellos > Hex Core 1 > Void > Hex Core 2 > Rabadons > Hex Core 3, with CDR boots, with a defensive item of Rylei's or Zhonyas.
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I really don't want to comment too much on it as I probably haden't played a single Viktor game pre-rework for over a year, but new Vik seems decent from that prospective
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Another option is running CDR blues instead. Pen boots are too good to leave out IMO.
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Im interested to see if new sion and new soraka spawn a heavy + medic meta in League. it'll at least be used for fun if not for success for sure i think.
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On September 26 2014 13:41 Ketara wrote:
Goumindong, I think the big problem that you're having with the Viktor rework is you're trying to see him in the context of the old Viktor.
Old Viktor had one ridiculous ability (laser) and really nobody cared about anything else in the kit. He had a strong power spike with death augment, and if he didn't do anything with it he fell off real hard.
It's true that they nerfed the laser and this power spike (although not by much), but everything else in the kit, including the Hex Core, has been buffed a lot. On the whole he has been buffed a LOT.
There are a lot of things that are just plain fallacious in your argument, and probably the biggest of them is the idea that the new Hex Core is bad or not an efficient first buy. You say in your argument that in order for the Hex Core to feel like a powerful item, it needs to be more gold efficient than similar pricepoint items, and yet it is not. However, this is not true. While the new Hex Core is not quite as cost efficient as the old Death Augment at one upgrade, it's still more cost efficient than anything else you could be buying at every upgrade stage, making it still the logical choice to rush.
It is honestly difficult for me to even pay any attention to the rest of the argument after that, because your statements about the Hex Core are just so blatantly, absurdly wrong.
But its not true that its anywhere near the most gold efficient for similar price point items. Its not as gold efficient as a blasting wand for christ sakes.
And even without the evolution point thing, you are telling me that you can't think of a single AP champ that would pay 3k for +500 MP and (I'll be conservative with this number) 150 AP? Hell, it seems pretty slot efficient to me once you sink the gold into it.
Its slot efficiency isn't bad. Its got 60 + 6/level AP which works out to 168 total AP. But for the gold its weak. You get 3 AP/Level as your passive, for zero gold. The marginal AP/1000 gold is 20+1/level. Which is really low. Fully upgraded you've paid 3k gold for 114 AP.
Rylai's is 2900 gold. It has 100 AP and 400 HP. Deathcap is 3300. Its got at minimum 172 AP on it (120 x 1.3 + .3 3/AP level passive). Zhonya, DFG are both similarly priced with similar power spikes.
This is why you don't feel powerful with the item as opposed to others, this is also why you tend to get the "clear waves faster" upgrade and then ignore the rest until you're full build, because they just aren't that good. Even the people gushing over him in the reddit thread are saying to play him how i suggested in my complaint thread (Max E, get E augment, finish core(one of Morello/Cup/Void), get lichbane maybe)
As for CDR boots. No, i don't think so. Pen has always been the core of Viktor's damage. His ratios are not great but his base damage is hilarious. At level 18 his Q is 471 AP to double damage. Compare to Fizz's Q (347 to double). His E isn't bad (350 to double) but his Ult is pretty bad (500 to double). Even with Lichbane his AP to double Q is only 420.
Even if you're going lichbane and are trying to maximize the procs you're going to want pen, ideally in you are going to want Guise, Void, and Sorc (though the Liandry's upgrade isn't as good as it used to be).
Fake edit: Lichbane isn't bad as a final or second to last item. But you're still primarily a burst mage, and the rework didn't change that.
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On September 26 2014 13:46 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 13:19 Goragoth wrote:
I think it's tough to judge EDG after their groupstage performance and I'd be cautious of jumping to conclusions. If that was EDG giving it their best then sure, it looked pretty bad. But given the make-up of their group they had the option to put in a ton of effort and best case split 1-1 with SSW and then lose the tiebreaker and finish second, or coast through the group doing the bare minimum and make it through second anyway, which I think is what we saw. Group stage games in any sport can be deceptive that way. I still think the most likely semifinals is SSW/SSB and NJWS/EDG with an all-Korea finals. It is just a shame that we (most likely) won't get to see a Bo5 series between a CN team and an LCS team. Given their group it looks pretty bad that they had to play a tiebreak to get out of it. Again that does not allude to them being some shit team (AHQ is probably relative strength to top3 NA/EU) but the bill of goods the people who are (not overboard) upset about was the KR>CN>>>>>>>NA=EU that the China edition of SI tried to sell us.
First off I do agree that the KR>CN>>>>>>>NA/EU assessment was off, it looks more like KR>>>>>>>CN>NA/EU to me from the group stages. But it is important to take into account how hard teams were likely trying before judging their power. I still think that Ozone was one of the strongest teams at Worlds last year for example, but they took group stages for granted, did't try their hardest and bombed out but they weren't a bad team (as they showed all through this year in OGN). This happens in sports all the time, when a team/player thinks they can advance easily they don't put in even close to 100% and they play bad games. I would not be in the least surprised to see EDG beat StarHorn in the quarters and even take 1 game against a Korean team in the semis.
Also, I doubt AHQ is a top 3 NA/EU team if they are distant second to TPA who in turn looked pretty bad against even TSM and SK. More likely they would be a middle tier team in those regions around 4-6th place.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Whatever, I'm fucking late :3
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thats a pretty fucking weighted to favor your argument comparison choosing Fizz Q, which has complete and utter trash tier base damage.
a Fizz with that much ap @lvl13 (when Q is maxed) does a 430 damage Q
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Vik @13 with Q + auto is 120 + ~260 counting ad (wiki is unclear on base damage lvl of magic) + .7 ap
showing ~72 ap to equal Fizz's damage ? am I missing something?
this is including base AD
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Isn't Kassadin's Q like almost the same exact skill? Maybe compare those. Or Vlad?
IDK, I don't play any of those 3.
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On September 26 2014 15:11 Goragoth wrote:Also, I doubt AHQ is a top 3 NA/EU team if they are distant second to TPA who in turn looked pretty bad against even TSM and SK. More likely they would be a middle tier team in those regions around 4-6th place.
Given this assessment I'm surprised you still definitively put a > between KR and LCS, at this point they need OMG needs to look pretty impressive or a chinese team needs to win a game in the semis for me to give that distinction back to them.
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On September 26 2014 15:27 Slusher wrote:
thats a pretty fucking weighted to favor your argument comparison choosing Fizz Q, which has complete and utter trash tier base damage.
I included his +100% AD magic damage and his 70 from his W on-hit. Fizz's Q does 310 or so base damage at level 18 its got an effective .95 AP ratio before Lichbane or W active. Its base damage is pretty high, but so its its scaling. I didn't include the W active but could have (up to 345 and 1.2 ratio). Though i am using Fizz's Q as an example of a high scaling rather than high base ability. The point is to contrast what you want on Fizz(AP) with what you want on Viktor (Pen)
Viktor Q does 330+100% AD as magic so call it 430 damage with a .7 ratio (which I didn't use, i went off of the 330 damage). Which would put AP to double damage at 613.
You want pen on Viktor. The rework moved more of his damage into base and moved it away from scaling. You wanted pen on old Viktor and you want pen on new Viktor more.
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EPT
