EPT[Patch 4.17] Soraka/Viktor General Discussion - Page 14
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 26 2014 20:26 killerdog wrote: I wish teut actually got made a mod~ Also rip AP sion, it was fun. Incredibly silly, but fun.  edit: nvm, they've nerfed his hp/lvl a lot, the place I'd checked just hadn't updated their pbe values yet I liked AP sion Think the whole scaling is the recent flavour among the Riot dev team. Cass got completely gutted AP ratios then instead got some stacking AP to compensate. Seems Sion got same treatment with his HP. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On September 26 2014 21:46 Numy wrote: I liked AP sion Think the whole scaling is the recent flavour among the Riot dev team. Cass got completely gutted AP ratios then instead got some stacking AP to compensate. Seems Sion got same treatment with his HP. I thought AP sion was fun too, actually. I have 40 ranked games on him this season. The jungler in me is happy for the rework though, always like getting more jungles. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He has 2275 HP at level 18 currently even without skilling E. He'll have ~1480 HP according to the PBE, which is the lowest base HP in the game by far. Even with E's passive and farming 200 cs he'll only have below average HP for a tank/bruiser. You'll have to hit super late game just to have a good "natural" HP pool, and we all know what happens to tanks' farm once the team starts grouping.  | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
Ever since two patches ago it's been happening to me and a friend of mine who I duo with sometimes. Just started happening out of nowhere for no readily apparent reason. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On September 26 2014 22:23 ArchAngelSC wrote: Is anyone else having a problem with losing way more points than you get for a win? Ever since two patches ago it's been happening to me and a friend of mine who I duo with sometimes. Just started happening out of nowhere for no readily apparent reason. srsly, just look up how the system works it makes perfect sense, there are 100024894582 posts explaining it. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On September 26 2014 15:03 Goumindong wrote: But its not true that its anywhere near the most gold efficient for similar price point items. Its not as gold efficient as a blasting wand for christ sakes. Is this for serious. Blasting Wand gives 40 AP for 860 gold. That's 1 AP per 21.5 gold. Assuming you upgrade your Hex Core at about level 7-8, it gives 27-28 AP. At the Blasting Wand value, this is worth 580.5-602 gold. So, 150 mana and an ability augment is not worth 398 gold? Looking at a Sapphire Crystal, 150 mana is worth 300 gold. The ability augment isn't worth 98 gold? You wouldn't get the laser upgrade at level 1 if you could pay 100 gold for it? Are you serious? Further, you compared the full item to a Deathcap, which you said gave 172 AP for 3300 gold. 19.18 gold per AP. The perfect Hex Core at level 18 (the level you're using) gives 114 AP. Valued at 2186.52 gold at that metric. 500 mana is worth 1000 gold looking at a Sapphire Crystal. So you're telling me that you wouldn't pay 114 gold for all four ability augments. Even if you did a more "reasonable" analysis and said okay, the Deathcap passive is worth about as much as all four augments (debatable), and 500 mana is only worth like 800 gold, Deathcap pays 27.5 gold per AP while the Perfect Hex Core pays 19.3 gold per AP. In fact, even if you valued the 500 mana at 0 gold, it'd still only be 26.3 gold per AP and more gold efficient than Deathcap. The only way you could possibly think that the Hex Core isn't absurdly gold efficient is if you think the mana stat on it AND the augments are completely worthless, which you shouldn't. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Just because the augment gives mana doesn't mean you can straight-up apply it. Mana and health regen are overvalued, mana regen is also overvalued past a point save for specific champions (Anivia, Swain, etc.). So, yes, you don't just say "300 gold worth of mana with the augment". The value of the augment previously was that it let you clear the whole wave with a single E (and a few hits on the melee minions before you hit level 9 and get some more AP), which is much more than 150 mana in terms of mana conservation/"sustain". Currently you can't hit the whole wave with E and even if you do it takes more AP/levels (so more time regardless) before you could oneshot minions, especially melee minions. It indirectly nerfs your farming, your roaming, and your ability to catch-up when behind. Which is valued much more than a mere 150 mana. There's no point of comparison for this. Taking the E augment at level 6-7 won't do nearly as much for you as it did previously; the E nerfs (faster speed, thinner width) and Q being weaker early on meaning that you can't nuke the wave, so the augment value itself isn't as high as it used too, until later. Do you massively raise the gold value of a completed Tiamat because of the Hp5, or because of the passive? Because I know what I spend my gold on. And stop fucking using the level 18 AP value to tell us how good the fucking Hexcore is. For fuck's sake, there are 17 levels and a good 25 minutes before that where the game is played. I don't care about how accurate your math is if you just throw it around without any fucking context of thought given to how do you even get there. "Guys, Cassiopeia with 400 stacks and some items has more than 1000 AP!" Great. But she's being buffed because she's shit damage-wise before that and it takes 30+ minutes to reach that state. Fucking. Context. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
On September 26 2014 11:54 wei2coolman wrote: that's sexist. Welcome to the internet, where you're always wrong no matter your genitals. I think we can both be right here. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On September 26 2014 22:54 Alaric wrote: This just in: stacked Tear worth ~2500 gold because 1 mana = 2 gold. Just because the augment gives mana doesn't mean you can straight-up apply it. Mana and health regen are overvalued, mana regen is also overvalued past a point save for specific champions (Anivia, Swain, etc.). So, yes, you don't just say "300 gold worth of mana with the augment". The value of the augment previously was that it let you clear the whole wave with a single E (and a few hits on the melee minions before you hit level 9 and get some more AP), which is much more than 150 mana in terms of mana conservation/"sustain". Currently you can't hit the whole wave with E and even if you do it takes more AP/levels (so more time regardless) before you could oneshot minions, especially melee minions. It indirectly nerfs your farming, your roaming, and your ability to catch-up when behind. Which is valued much more than a mere 150 mana. There's no point of comparison for this. Taking the E augment at level 6-7 won't do nearly as much for you as it did previously; the E nerfs (faster speed, thinner width) and Q being weaker early on meaning that you can't nuke the wave, so the augment value itself isn't as high as it used too, until later. Do you massively raise the gold value of a completed Tiamat because of the Hp5, or because of the passive? Because I know what I spend my gold on. And stop fucking using the level 18 AP value to tell us how good the fucking Hexcore is. For fuck's sake, there are 17 levels and a good 25 minutes before that where the game is played. I don't care about how accurate your math is if you just throw it around without any fucking context of thought given to how do you even get there. "Guys, Cassiopeia with 400 stacks and some items has more than 1000 AP!" Great. But she's being buffed because she's shit damage-wise before that and it takes 30+ minutes to reach that state. Fucking. Context. I used level 18 for the Perfect Hex Core because Goumindong did for Deathcap. Would you suggest that I compare a level 11 champion with a level 18 champion to figure out what's equal? Let me do the Blasting Wand comparison in a different way for you. Blasting Wand gives like 15 AP over Hex Core (if you got it at level 5). Viktor has 335% AP ratio on his kit (without the laser augment), so 15 AP gives him 50.25 damage on his kit. The laser augment by itself adds 69 damage at level 5, assuming you had no other items and no AP on runes and masteries. At level 9 it adds 108.12 So, even if you valued the 150 mana at 0 gold, laser augment Hex Core would outvalue a Blasting Wand, just like how even if you valued the 500 mana at 0 gold, Perfect Hex Core would outvalue a Deathcap. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's not as efficient at 1 upgrade as the old Hex Core was, but it's still more efficient than any other item Viktor can buy. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
At level 6-7 even with the additional damage from E you won't one-shot the wave. And that's. The entire. Goddamn point. 'cause these 150 mana won't reduce E's cooldown nor allow you to cast it twice per wave. Here, have a Short Fuse that deals 600 base damage on a 50 second static cooldown, meanwhile your Q only does 50 + 0.2 AP at level 5. Ziggs obviously buffed because his rotation does more damage, even if he can't waveclear for shit anymore. How many times do I have to repeat it for you to stop throwing inane numbers without context and tailored to a single use-case at us? It's not about "it's better than the rest!", considering that I'd rather spend 2k gold on an item giving me utility, then the augment once I have more levels and AP to make it worthwhile, than 2k on the augment and a component that may or may not let me one-shot the wave, then complete the item. I'd quote % penetration items being better once you have higher damage/the enemy has more MR, but since on most kits void staff outperforms deathcap as a 2nd item (post-grail usually) it wouldn't be a working example. Maybe how LW is better after your AS/crit item if you start IE, then. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On September 26 2014 23:07 Alaric wrote: ... at level 5 you won't have ult, for one. At level 6-7 even with the additional damage from E you won't one-shot the wave. And that's. The entire. Goddamn point. 'cause these 150 mana won't reduce E's cooldown nor allow you to cast it twice per wave. Here, have a Short Fuse that deals 600 base damage on a 50 second static cooldown, meanwhile your Q only does 50 + 0.2 AP at level 5. Ziggs obviously buffed because his rotation does more damage, even if he can't waveclear for shit anymore. How many times do I have to repeat it for you to stop throwing inane numbers without context and tailored to a single use-case at us? But a Blasting Wand lets you one shot the wave? I don't get it. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On September 26 2014 17:01 Goumindong wrote: The mother goosing point was that the base damage is comparatively low! It's not a good skill to use an an example because it's the fucking perfect skill to use as an example?! Bad skill to use as an example because it's too complex for people to follow (although Slusher at least understood it eventually). | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I'd likely go for parts of Morellonomicon (since I'm not really sold on Grail on Viktor, although it's certainly feasible too): about the same AP although not the E augment (as said, not really meaningful on minions, on champions it's more match-up dependant), but CDR to go with it and mana regen (Forbidden Idol takes ~1:30 to equate 150 mana, you'd normally not recall that often so it's pretty much equivalent). I'd rather complete Morellonomicon then buy the Augment, than the reverse. I have more CDR, earlier, to make up for the long cd on E and especially his ult (although it's been buffed in the rework), I have mana regen to make up for the mana (and later beat it, although at Morellonomicon's price point you can have augment, codex and a faerie charm so they'll be more or less equal at 1:30 again) and let me cast E more often to make up for the reduced damage. I'll also have more AP (codex is 30, combine cost includes +50 AP). There should be a short window during which E can (finally) one-shot the wave, but it'll be smoother before that, when my farm would be meh regardless of what I buy. Since his early game is weaker too, and you can't hit champions running away from you with the secondary explosion, I don't mind losing out on E burst in exchange for the CDR (Q shield/W) and a bit more AP. Obviously in match-ups against like Zed I'd use the gold to get Seeker's instead. Zed was already better than Viktor (if he used his shadows correctly to not hit a stun for free, although even in the latter case he can still outtrade) and his weaker earlygame makes the match-up even worse though so it's probably skewed. Haven't played against other AD mids with Viktor recently. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Do you really need that much regen though? Is Morello + 500 mana on your hex core a requirement late game? If you don't, then the Morello doesn't look quite so gold efficient, since you're going to be completing the Core at some point. If you do, Morello 1st Hex Core 2nd is probably pretty good. | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Late game, 500 mana is definitely not enough. Remember that you're spamming that 110 mana E, and that most people are gawking at the Q cd and asking for CDR (which you'll probably get, otherwise 100 seconds is long when most mids have a 60-70s cd ult by late game, and 13-9s is relatively long for E too), meaning you burn through mana pretty fast if you can consistently spend 65 every 3-4 seconds as the fight starts, assuming you poked before hand (you should, because R damage is so backloaded (well, less so now) you aren't likely to burst people instantly). There's also not that much incentive to complete the whole hexcore before later (Q can be good depending on comp but I'm not sold, W makes me yell "if you like it why didn't you pick Orianna", and void/zhonya/etc. provide you with too much utility to favour Q/W over them most of the time) so you'll have 300 bonus mana at best for most of the game, it's not that much even if Viktor's base pool is respectable. Obiously if you have blue buff you can get by but can't ensure you have it on a 100% uptime. Plus apart from running Ionan boots (and as Goumindong pointed out Viktor's damage is a lot on his base values, even moreso at the later levels which you seem to focus on, given Q's low cd for single-target dps, E being harder to hit either way, and R having its ratio nerfed, so you kind of like the penetration), stacking CDR would be scaling CDR glyphs+blue+blue elixir, which I don't find ideal (I know some people like it though). | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On September 26 2014 22:33 sob3k wrote: srsly, just look up how the system works it makes perfect sense, there are 100024894582 posts explaining it. I am well aware of how the system works. Thank you for your input though. That doesn't explain why it randomly started after the patch for no reason. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting here asking about it  | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
You have to E so that you have only the after explosion hit the ranged creeps and have the aftershock and the initial laser hit the melee creeps. I think it can be done earlier than before, but it's hard to do consistently. Very small window between one shoting the wave and having basically the whole wave live except for the mage creeps. | ||
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