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On September 07 2014 08:46 VayneAuthority wrote:
well thats because it works the opposite way. The teams and the sponsors are the demand, not players. Tons of people want to play pro.
Hence why you have to stick out as a popular streamer or something similar to get recognized as an asset to a team ($$)
In addition to obviously being at least somewhat decent at this game (challenger)
This isn't remotely true. Players get picked up because they're good, not because they're popular streamers. The only exceptions I think think of are subs like Nightblue or Gosu.
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On September 07 2014 08:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS teams are like vultures picking the bones of the players that got popular early on in leagus history, while in korea teams seek new talent regularly. riot doesn't like a lot of roster changes as players leaving the scene may take fans with them, so the rules prevent turnover at a high rate, and everyone just takes each others scraps. to fill holes. no development of new talent happens in NA anyway, so whats the point of limiting imports if there is no NA development either way.
Look, SKT picked up Faker and his crew and all of a sudden they are world champion in ~1 year. While Faker's talents are definitely there, his crew were just that, Korean Challenger soloQ players. SKT built this team from scratch and became a winning team.
C9 is pretty similar to be honest. Someone assembled a team of Challenger players with very little competitive experience (what the fuck was Meteos doing before C9?) and made it the undisputed best team in NA. C9 didn't win World's (and probably never will), but C9 definitely demonstrated that NA has good players out thee.
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On September 07 2014 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:49 Slusher wrote:
well it is practically impossible to get relegated at this point Coast got relegated. XDG did as well. Putting in more LCS team also means more teams have to play in relegation, which IMO is actually more opportunity for Challenger teams.
at this point as in now, post this rule, post 10 teams in the LCS
c9, skt are the dream scenario, Curse academy is the likely one
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On September 07 2014 09:03 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:On September 07 2014 08:49 Slusher wrote:
well it is practically impossible to get relegated at this point Coast got relegated. XDG did as well. Putting in more LCS team also means more teams have to play in relegation, which IMO is actually more opportunity for Challenger teams. at this point as in now, post this rule, post 10 teams in the LCS
How do you know there will only be 3 teams who needs to face relegation in Season 5?
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I'm not afraid if all 10 of them have to play in
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On September 07 2014 09:09 Slusher wrote:
I'm not afraid if all 10 of them have to play in
I think the number of relegation teams with 10 teams will be 4-5. This is just a guess, but I think it's a reasonable guess to say at least 4 teams.
So for now let's assume in Season 5, the last 4 teams have to play in relegation. This means that the 7th and 8th still need to play in relegation, and only the 5th can cut some slack. This, IMO, is not a huge change for the LCS teams.
For Challenger teams, however, this means more opportunity to get into the LCS - because instead of 3 teams playing for LCS spots you will have 4 teams. Better opportunity = more motivation for Challenger teams to practice well. As we have seen last split, even long-time LCS teams such as Coast can get relegated despite 5th and being first pick.
Also I want to point out again that SKT T1 K started out as these random amateur players, whom, under good management and their personal effort, became World Champion in S3. If you put, for example, Team 8 into the LCS, they might be able to go far as well. You can't just dismiss Challenger teams like that.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 07 2014 08:56 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS teams are like vultures picking the bones of the players that got popular early on in leagus history, while in korea teams seek new talent regularly. riot doesn't like a lot of roster changes as players leaving the scene may take fans with them, so the rules prevent turnover at a high rate, and everyone just takes each others scraps. to fill holes. no development of new talent happens in NA anyway, so whats the point of limiting imports if there is no NA development either way. Look, SKT picked up Faker and his crew and all of a sudden they are world champion in ~1 year. While Faker's talents are definitely there, his crew were just that, Korean Challenger soloQ players. SKT built this team from scratch and became a winning team. C9 is pretty similar to be honest. Someone assembled a team of Challenger players with very little competitive experience (what the fuck was Meteos doing before C9?) and made it the undisputed best team in NA. C9 didn't win World's (and probably never will), but C9 definitely demonstrated that NA has good players out thee.
Meteos is the outlier here. Hai and Lemon played on Orbit back in the day, Balls played on FeaR with Aphromoo and even Sneaky was playing on a team that was doing well in the TSM invitationals. I'm all for new talent coming into the scene but C9 was hardly full of brand new players.
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On September 07 2014 09:21 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:56 Sufficiency wrote:On September 07 2014 08:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS teams are like vultures picking the bones of the players that got popular early on in leagus history, while in korea teams seek new talent regularly. riot doesn't like a lot of roster changes as players leaving the scene may take fans with them, so the rules prevent turnover at a high rate, and everyone just takes each others scraps. to fill holes. no development of new talent happens in NA anyway, so whats the point of limiting imports if there is no NA development either way. Look, SKT picked up Faker and his crew and all of a sudden they are world champion in ~1 year. While Faker's talents are definitely there, his crew were just that, Korean Challenger soloQ players. SKT built this team from scratch and became a winning team. C9 is pretty similar to be honest. Someone assembled a team of Challenger players with very little competitive experience (what the fuck was Meteos doing before C9?) and made it the undisputed best team in NA. C9 didn't win World's (and probably never will), but C9 definitely demonstrated that NA has good players out thee. Meteos is the outlier here. Hai and Lemon played on Orbit back in the day, Balls played on FeaR with Aphromoo and even Sneaky was playing on a team that was doing well in the TSM invitationals. I'm all for new talent coming into the scene but C9 was hardly full of brand new players.
Alright, so they have some competitive experience in the challenger scene but weren't too successful prior to C9. So let's dismiss these no-talents garbage NA players and import Seraph from Korea.
See the issue here?
Most challenger players on NA simply got dismissed before they even got a chance, because:
1. Importing a second rate player with deep professional experience is easy (see: Helios) and safer for NA organizations who have very little money in their pockets.
2. The community is really bad and biased against NA players.
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I don't think anyone is equating "new talent" with "completely unknown amateur." Rather, "new talent" could simply just mean a play who isn't on a popular team and/or isn't well known. If you are a legitimately good player with a chance at going pro, people really into the scene will know who you are.
Before C9 was formed and came in LCS, I highly doubt 90% of the fanbase knew who the fuck Hai, Lemon, Balls, Sneaky, or Meteos were. For all intents and purposes, they were "new talent" at the time they broke into LCS/got into Challenger scene.
I mean, people talk about how the KR pro scene picks up "new talent" as if they take complete no-names and make them big. That's not true. When they pick up amateurs, they generally pick up players who have already made a name for themselves via solo queue or NLB. Just because we haven't heard of them doesn't mean the KR fanbase hasn't heard of them nor does it imply they're "new" as in unknown.
I do agree that NA and to a lesser extent EU teams are really bad at picking up amateur players off solo queue or lesser Challenger teams. But that largely has to do with how LCS is structured. Teams simply can't afford to pick up a green player and develop them over the course of LCS since each individual game is so important in determining if they get relegated or going to worlds. KR organizations can afford to do this since they have the money to create B teams and cultivate talent. Being able to have sister teams also goes a long way for that, too.
For NA organizations, it's much more reliable to pick up established players, foreign or not. I mean, look at TSM. They experimented with the Gleeb pickup and it was more or less a total failure. Gleeb was expected to become better over time, and to some extent he did, but the amount of pressure that was put on TSM/Gleeb due to having to qualify for Worlds made the Gleeb experiment end in failure - Gleeb broke down and TSM ended up picking up Lustboy.
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On September 07 2014 09:27 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't think anyone is equating "new talent" with "completely unknown amateur." Rather, "new talent" could simply just mean a play who isn't on a popular team and/or isn't well known. If you are a legitimately good player with a chance at going pro, people really into the scene will know who you are.
Before C9 was formed and came in LCS, I highly doubt 90% of the fanbase knew who the fuck Hai, Lemon, Balls, Sneaky, or Meteos were. For all intents and purposes, they were "new talent" at the time they broke into LCS/got into Challenger scene.
I mean, people talk about how the KR pro scene picks up "new talent" as if they take complete no-names and make them big. That's not true. When they pick up amateurs, they generally pick up players who have already made a name for themselves via solo queue or NLB. Just because we haven't heard of them doesn't mean the KR fanbase hasn't heard of them nor does it imply they're "new" as in unknown.
I do agree that NA and to a lesser extent EU teams are really bad at picking up amateur players off solo queue or lesser Challenger teams. But that largely has to do with how LCS is structured. Teams simply can't afford to pick up a green player and develop them over the course of LCS since each individual game is so important in determining if they get relegated or going to worlds. KR organizations can afford to do this since they have the money to create B teams and cultivate talent. Being able to have sister teams also goes a long way for that, too.
how many players in OGN have played at top tournaments since season 1? how many in NA LCS?
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On September 07 2014 09:27 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't think anyone is equating "new talent" with "completely unknown amateur." Rather, "new talent" could simply just mean a play who isn't on a popular team and/or isn't well known. If you are a legitimately good player with a chance at going pro, people really into the scene will know who you are.
Before C9 was formed and came in LCS, I highly doubt 90% of the fanbase knew who the fuck Hai, Lemon, Balls, Sneaky, or Meteos were. For all intents and purposes, they were "new talent" at the time they broke into LCS/got into Challenger scene.
I mean, people talk about how the KR pro scene picks up "new talent" as if they take complete no-names and make them big. That's not true. When they pick up amateurs, they generally pick up players who have already made a name for themselves via solo queue or NLB. Just because we haven't heard of them doesn't mean the KR fanbase hasn't heard of them nor does it imply they're "new" as in unknown.
I do agree that NA and to a lesser extent EU teams are really bad at picking up amateur players off solo queue or lesser Challenger teams. But that largely has to do with how LCS is structured. Teams simply can't afford to pick up a green player and develop them over the course of LCS since each individual game is so important in determining if they get relegated or going to worlds. KR organizations can afford to do this since they have the money to create B teams and cultivate talent. Being able to have sister teams also goes a long way for that, too.
Which is why Riot made the right move to increase number of LCS slots, so challenger players can qualify as a team... which IMO is better than individual players getting picked up anyway.
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On September 07 2014 09:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 09:27 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't think anyone is equating "new talent" with "completely unknown amateur." Rather, "new talent" could simply just mean a play who isn't on a popular team and/or isn't well known. If you are a legitimately good player with a chance at going pro, people really into the scene will know who you are.
Before C9 was formed and came in LCS, I highly doubt 90% of the fanbase knew who the fuck Hai, Lemon, Balls, Sneaky, or Meteos were. For all intents and purposes, they were "new talent" at the time they broke into LCS/got into Challenger scene.
I mean, people talk about how the KR pro scene picks up "new talent" as if they take complete no-names and make them big. That's not true. When they pick up amateurs, they generally pick up players who have already made a name for themselves via solo queue or NLB. Just because we haven't heard of them doesn't mean the KR fanbase hasn't heard of them nor does it imply they're "new" as in unknown.
I do agree that NA and to a lesser extent EU teams are really bad at picking up amateur players off solo queue or lesser Challenger teams. But that largely has to do with how LCS is structured. Teams simply can't afford to pick up a green player and develop them over the course of LCS since each individual game is so important in determining if they get relegated or going to worlds. KR organizations can afford to do this since they have the money to create B teams and cultivate talent. Being able to have sister teams also goes a long way for that, too. how many players in OGN have played at top tournaments since season 1? how many in NA LCS?
Korea didn't even have a server until Season 2 so I'll start counting from there. I will count most international tournaments (so stuff like IEM, Star Wars, WCG, etc...) but won't count stuff like TSM invitational.
KR: (13)
+ Show Spoiler +Hor0
Bang (played at Star Wars 2012 for Najin; dropped off map in 2013)
Cain
MidKing
Cpt Jack
Lilac
Impact
dade
watch
Madlife
Space
Shy
Ambition
NA: (17)
+ Show Spoiler +Westrice
ROBERTxLEE
LiNk
Doublelift
Xpecial
Cop
Voyboy
IWillDominate
Imaqtpie
Crumbz
ZionSpartan
Helios
Krepo
NoName
Dyrus
Bjergsen
Lustboy
Questionable inclusions:
+ Show Spoiler +imp (KR; NLB Summer '12)
DanDy (KR; NLB Summer '12)
Balls (NA; IPL Faceoff SF)
Hai (NA; MLG Summer '12)
LemonNation (NA; MLG Summer '12)
Aphromoo (NA; IPL Faceoff SF)
Pobelter (NA; said to be good in Season 2, but never really played in anything due to age)
Amazing (NA; World eSports Masters '12)
WildTurtle (NA; IPL Faceoff SF)
I didn't include IPL Faceoff and MLG since those were basically amateur tournaments and you specifically asked for top tournaments, despite being LANs. NLB falls into the same category, especially in 2012 when the Korean scene was very new. I also didn't count qualifier tournaments, except the ones for World Championships. Reason being that stuff like IEM Qualifiers were basically amateur tourneys.
A few in the NA category are kind of cheating, but I put them in there anyways for fairness. NoName is technically a Season 2 veteran, but he (and LMQ) are basically a Chinese team. ROBERTxLEE and Bjergsen played in international tourneys in Season 2, but they were on awful teams that had practically no relevance.
Despite that, 13 to 17 is not bad if you take into account that the Korean scene is much newer than the NA scene, so they will, by default, have a smaller pool of veteran players to pick from in the first place.
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Another loss prevented yay
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On September 07 2014 08:56 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS teams are like vultures picking the bones of the players that got popular early on in leagus history, while in korea teams seek new talent regularly. riot doesn't like a lot of roster changes as players leaving the scene may take fans with them, so the rules prevent turnover at a high rate, and everyone just takes each others scraps. to fill holes. no development of new talent happens in NA anyway, so whats the point of limiting imports if there is no NA development either way. Look, SKT picked up Faker and his crew and all of a sudden they are world champion in ~1 year. While Faker's talents are definitely there, his crew were just that, Korean Challenger soloQ players. SKT built this team from scratch and became a winning team. C9 is pretty similar to be honest. Someone assembled a team of Challenger players with very little competitive experience (what the fuck was Meteos doing before C9?) and made it the undisputed best team in NA. C9 didn't win World's (and probably never will), but C9 definitely demonstrated that NA has good players out thee.
C9 was a freak accident imo, they just happen to have extremely good team chemistry. Their team individually aren't that amazing.
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so I just tried to play a game of Q max Sona, won the game but this build is 100% dead isn't it?
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On September 07 2014 11:07 Slusher wrote:
so I just tried to play a game of Q max Sona, won the game but this build is 100% dead isn't it?
i've literally only played like 1 game of Sona post-rework, but my experience with it was that so much of the power on Q was moved to the on-hit aura, her poke ability in lane is way weaker unless your AD carry is very proactive about using that Q on-hit.
Her new W seems a lot stronger though.
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On September 07 2014 11:03 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 08:56 Sufficiency wrote:On September 07 2014 08:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS teams are like vultures picking the bones of the players that got popular early on in leagus history, while in korea teams seek new talent regularly. riot doesn't like a lot of roster changes as players leaving the scene may take fans with them, so the rules prevent turnover at a high rate, and everyone just takes each others scraps. to fill holes. no development of new talent happens in NA anyway, so whats the point of limiting imports if there is no NA development either way. Look, SKT picked up Faker and his crew and all of a sudden they are world champion in ~1 year. While Faker's talents are definitely there, his crew were just that, Korean Challenger soloQ players. SKT built this team from scratch and became a winning team. C9 is pretty similar to be honest. Someone assembled a team of Challenger players with very little competitive experience (what the fuck was Meteos doing before C9?) and made it the undisputed best team in NA. C9 didn't win World's (and probably never will), but C9 definitely demonstrated that NA has good players out thee. C9 was a freak accident imo, they just happen to have extremely good team chemistry. Their team individually aren't that amazing.
But League isn't an individual game, its a team sport.
Just because Messi is a better player than anyone else in the world right now doesn't gift him the world cup. (DEUTSCHLAND <3)
Its like how in DotA pub play and teamplay considered totally different beast. I think LoL is the same way. In my experience in ranked 5s, there are a few people I know who are just terrible at ranked 5s compared to Soloqueue, and I know quite a few who are the exact opposite. My one buddy is like Silver 5 in Soloqueue but is like a legit awesome Plat 1 Top laner in Ranked 5s.
Aside from basic mechanics there is almost no correlation in my opinion.
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Getting into some ARAMs from an invite and having to deal with shit like Ziggs, or Gnar (manaless, no cd) + Janna + Urgot + Cass + Teemo, is one of the most cancerous ways to get back into the game after a 2 weeks break, I've found. :|
People are taking ARAMs way too seriously. Also, feels like playing against bots.
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Watching that Korean Soloqueue twitch stream.
Wtf... Koreans behind like 5k gold everyone just stands in fountain. The fuck.
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On September 07 2014 11:48 iCanada wrote:
Watching that Korean Soloqueue twitch stream.
Wtf... Koreans behind like 5k gold everyone just stands in fountain. The fuck.
they try to simulate real play as much as possible so they get good practice. they minimize joke games to reduce time wasted.
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EPT
