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Australia18228 Posts
On July 16 2014 16:53 wei2coolman wrote:
I don't like the Ahri change, mana costs were literally a non issue. You could rush DFG and not worry about mana with Ahri....
Would have preferred increased base damage with slight mana increase.
It's not about the late-game damage. It's about waveclear at around lv9ish... you don't 1shot the caster minions with Q unless you're ahead. The change reduces the AP threshold to 1shotting, and allows Ahri to roam better
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Uh, isn't Buckshot's damage pretty low if you're not close (which means easy retaliation), especially considering how fast Graves gets oom compared to most ADs?
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On July 16 2014 17:49 Alaric wrote:
Uh, isn't Buckshot's damage pretty low if you're not close (which means easy retaliation), especially considering how fast Graves gets oom compared to most ADs?
Definetely comparable to Lucian's Q if Lucian doesnt also hit the double taps.
While Lucian can dash up, auto, Q, auto, Graves can do the same thing faster, while leaving a smoke screen to prevent retaliation to some degree. If Lucian tries to do it first, smoke screen!
That with the fact that Graves's passive is fucking disgusting when it comes to early game hard-trading, and that Graves can just build IE and abuse his auto attack speed buff from his dash and flat destroy a Lucian after the item changes, is why I never really understood the Lucian whines post-BF sword patch.
After this patch Graves actually outranges Lucian
Obviously this is all solo Q and I fully understand that graves scales off lategame when compared to Lucian since graves is such a Jack-of-all-trades but never filling a clear role properly
All in all, yeah, this patch might just kill Lucian effectively in competitive play. Lucians role was to be a really mobile ranged fighter, with decent burst and decent sustained damage. The 50 range reduce brings him a bit too close to a lot of targets for comfort, and further kills his ability to unload his full burst during laning phase.
However, yes, everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt, since I play on the Chinese server, and the most whined champ Lee Sin has a progressively worse win rate the higher you go in the Leagues, while never going past 50% in any of them.
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Lucian is definitely not dead.But in this current meta i highly doubt him being picked any more due to kog/trist/cait pretty much shitting on him with the range nerfs.
But i actually like the changes, i prefer a low range high mobility playstyle 
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United States10467 Posts
On July 16 2014 18:08 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 17:49 Alaric wrote:
Uh, isn't Buckshot's damage pretty low if you're not close (which means easy retaliation), especially considering how fast Graves gets oom compared to most ADs? Definetely comparable to Lucian's Q if Lucian doesnt also hit the double taps. While Lucian can dash up, auto, Q, auto, Graves can do the same thing faster, while leaving a smoke screen to prevent retaliation to some degree. If Lucian tries to do it first, smoke screen! That with the fact that Graves's passive is fucking disgusting when it comes to early game hard-trading, and that Graves can just build IE and abuse his auto attack speed buff from his dash and flat destroy a Lucian after the item changes, is why I never really understood the Lucian whines post-BF sword patch. After this patch Graves actually outranges Lucian Obviously this is all solo Q and I fully understand that graves scales off lategame when compared to Lucian since graves is such a Jack-of-all-trades but never filling a clear role properly All in all, yeah, this patch might just kill Lucian effectively in competitive play. Lucians role was to be a really mobile ranged fighter, with decent burst and decent sustained damage. The 50 range reduce brings him a bit too close to a lot of targets for comfort, and further kills his ability to unload his full burst during laning phase. However, yes, everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt, since I play on the Chinese server, and the most whined champ Lee Sin has a progressively worse win rate the higher you go in the Leagues, while never going past 50% in any of them.
Lee's win rate rises through the ranks and hits 50% at challenger iirc.
It's on lolking though I feel like I saw a reddit thread about it.
On July 16 2014 17:40 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 17:14 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 16 2014 16:27 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Lucian main here. The only time I ever use E offensively is during all-in situations which doesn't really happen often in bot lane due to all the heals and exhausts and Morgana/Nami being so prevalent. Laning phase is more about chipping down your opponent with Q through minions until you can secure the kill with an all-in. With the nerf to his auto and Q range, that's going to be hard. I can see Lucian being really strong top because of his range and kiting ability but going ham in a 2v2+ fight with e is more often than not unrewarding. I don't agree with this playstyle against Tristana. I have a hard time outtrading lucian if he just Q auto W auto's me. All I can do back is auto E auto and if I'm maxing W then that's no where near the same amount of damage. Lucian's trade burst is high. To make the trade even Tristana has to W in, and if the W misses due to flash or E, or the minions on Lucian's side start hitting Trist, then the all-in fails. I think Lucian's lane burst is high compared to other ADC, kind of like graves, so he should abuse that instead of poking with Q. Couple points - I dont feel like you should ever max W early on as trist. Lots of Lucians early game damage comes from his passive - back off when its up, unless he decides to freeze the lane (impossible since hes spamming Q isnt he?) hes going to have to shoot it at minions. If you manage to sidestep his Q then hes down a fuck ton of mana. If hes spamming W just to harrass then he WILL be out of mana. If you support is letting him run up to you and Q auto W auto then your support is either bad, or non-existence. Trist's early game dominance isnt the fact that she can hurr-durr all in pre 6 and expect kills - its her E being press-and-forget, then go back farming minions. She can easily do a lot of unchecked harrass when other ADCs have to reply by either hitting skillshots (dodgable), or chase you and auto attack, which will pull minion aggro. In lucians case, this is both. Its why Lucian doesnt have a good time fighting graves - graves buckshot is shoot-and-forget, while his smoke screen prevents Lucian's reply damage from coming through effectively. Her unchecked damage is even further amplified if they are using any form of healing - pots, nami, or summoner spells.
I've done E max, for a long time actually, but if people just poke and back off, then both sides will be full after chugging pots/lifesteal. Even if one side loses 25 healing on that pot.
The problem is it's still a dot so people can retaliate while its ticking in a big engagement.
W max can reset and really shine in midgame skirmishes or 2v2/3v2 fights bot lane. That's why I finally switched to the majority W max.
If people take free harass from Trist's E then that's their mistake. It had pretty much the same range as Lucian's Q which is Trists' auto range.
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On July 16 2014 20:32 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 18:08 padfoota wrote:On July 16 2014 17:49 Alaric wrote:
Uh, isn't Buckshot's damage pretty low if you're not close (which means easy retaliation), especially considering how fast Graves gets oom compared to most ADs? Definetely comparable to Lucian's Q if Lucian doesnt also hit the double taps. While Lucian can dash up, auto, Q, auto, Graves can do the same thing faster, while leaving a smoke screen to prevent retaliation to some degree. If Lucian tries to do it first, smoke screen! That with the fact that Graves's passive is fucking disgusting when it comes to early game hard-trading, and that Graves can just build IE and abuse his auto attack speed buff from his dash and flat destroy a Lucian after the item changes, is why I never really understood the Lucian whines post-BF sword patch. After this patch Graves actually outranges Lucian Obviously this is all solo Q and I fully understand that graves scales off lategame when compared to Lucian since graves is such a Jack-of-all-trades but never filling a clear role properly All in all, yeah, this patch might just kill Lucian effectively in competitive play. Lucians role was to be a really mobile ranged fighter, with decent burst and decent sustained damage. The 50 range reduce brings him a bit too close to a lot of targets for comfort, and further kills his ability to unload his full burst during laning phase. However, yes, everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt, since I play on the Chinese server, and the most whined champ Lee Sin has a progressively worse win rate the higher you go in the Leagues, while never going past 50% in any of them. Lee's win rate rises through the ranks and hits 50% at challenger iirc. It's on lolking though I feel like I saw a reddit thread about it. Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 17:40 padfoota wrote:On July 16 2014 17:14 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 16 2014 16:27 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Lucian main here. The only time I ever use E offensively is during all-in situations which doesn't really happen often in bot lane due to all the heals and exhausts and Morgana/Nami being so prevalent. Laning phase is more about chipping down your opponent with Q through minions until you can secure the kill with an all-in. With the nerf to his auto and Q range, that's going to be hard. I can see Lucian being really strong top because of his range and kiting ability but going ham in a 2v2+ fight with e is more often than not unrewarding. I don't agree with this playstyle against Tristana. I have a hard time outtrading lucian if he just Q auto W auto's me. All I can do back is auto E auto and if I'm maxing W then that's no where near the same amount of damage. Lucian's trade burst is high. To make the trade even Tristana has to W in, and if the W misses due to flash or E, or the minions on Lucian's side start hitting Trist, then the all-in fails. I think Lucian's lane burst is high compared to other ADC, kind of like graves, so he should abuse that instead of poking with Q. Couple points - I dont feel like you should ever max W early on as trist. Lots of Lucians early game damage comes from his passive - back off when its up, unless he decides to freeze the lane (impossible since hes spamming Q isnt he?) hes going to have to shoot it at minions. If you manage to sidestep his Q then hes down a fuck ton of mana. If hes spamming W just to harrass then he WILL be out of mana. If you support is letting him run up to you and Q auto W auto then your support is either bad, or non-existence. Trist's early game dominance isnt the fact that she can hurr-durr all in pre 6 and expect kills - its her E being press-and-forget, then go back farming minions. She can easily do a lot of unchecked harrass when other ADCs have to reply by either hitting skillshots (dodgable), or chase you and auto attack, which will pull minion aggro. In lucians case, this is both. Its why Lucian doesnt have a good time fighting graves - graves buckshot is shoot-and-forget, while his smoke screen prevents Lucian's reply damage from coming through effectively. Her unchecked damage is even further amplified if they are using any form of healing - pots, nami, or summoner spells. I've done E max, for a long time actually, but if people just poke and back off, then both sides will be full after chugging pots/lifesteal. Even if one side loses 25 healing on that pot. The problem is it's still a dot so people can retaliate while its ticking in a big engagement. W max can reset and really shine in midgame skirmishes or 2v2/3v2 fights bot lane. That's why I finally switched to the majority W max. If people take free harass from Trist's E then that's their mistake. It had pretty much the same range as Lucian's Q which is Trists' auto range.
I meant Lee's winrate on the chinese server right now. Its 51.78% in bronze all the way to 47.53% in Challenger on the chinese servers.
In big engagements - yeah. trists E is just a mini-ignite unless you have a ridiculous amount of AP. maxing E pre-6 is like having an actual free ignite. You shoot it and back off. You dont stick around and try to auto. Shoot it and back off. How many ADs can retaliate reliably if someone is doing the equivalent of "walking up, ignite, walk away" every couple seconds?
If the opponent tries to force a trade you still have a support to rely on, or you can just flat back off and come back again once its up. Shes not that bad at autoing with 2 dorans either. The problem is, Trists "poke and back off" is way faster, and prevents pretty much any retaliation of equal level other than a couple choicy champs. Even twitch has to use at least two skills when trist only needs one. Yeah sure, her E doesnt feel like much damage, but treat it like a free ignite early on and it builds up fast.
But yes, without AP her E scales off fast. I max E pre 6, then all points into Q after 6 - it maxes out at lvl10. At this point you should have IE so the max Q becomes amazing.
Its actually quite easy to just poke with E as trist - a lot people treat it as nothing, and sooner or later they have to come up and auto the minions. If they completely back off just to prevent the E from happening - then trist is free farming and...yeah. If you can auto people as trist during laning then you can hit people with the E.
Regarding W max - It already resets at level 1..the damage is as negligible during mid game as is E. Id rather max E pre 6 for the early poke and the mid game clear/farm speed, and just rely on the W as a re-positioner.
Neither W or E is strong early game, but its more about what AD trist is and how you get there faster/safer.
I just dont see how maxing W early game does anything to help with her early game laning phase or her mid game farming/assassin phase..obviously after lvl11 I max W because it reduces the cooldown, but the reason is never "because the damage is higher"...to each their own I guess.
This is all tristana as AD carry discussion right @@?
But yeah if the opponent support is thresh...dont play trist..holy fuck dont play trist.
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The reason you max e is to push faster and w max on tristana is literally the worst possible max.
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United States10467 Posts
I guess no one maxes W over E anymore.
I can agree with maxing Q before finishing E or W. I do that, and it definitely makes her strong even in the midgame.
Pushing faster has its advantages and disadvantages as it makes it harder to freeze lanes or keep them near your tower. I don't think that's the main reason why people max E.
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I really like Riots effort to bring champs like Ahri or Kha back in comp and I dont get all the uproar of not nerfing Lee. These are just fun/rewarding to play AND to watch champs. I mean it`s not like all champs have some inherent right to be viable or op at a certain point in time.
I guess its preference but I´d rather play or watch Ahri vs Zed mid then say Lulu vs Ori.
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On July 16 2014 22:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
I guess no one maxes W over E anymore.
I can agree with maxing Q before finishing E or W. I do that, and it definitely makes her strong even in the midgame.
Pushing faster has its advantages and disadvantages as it makes it harder to freeze lanes or keep them near your tower. I don't think that's the main reason why people max E.
Yes it is.You push you go farm jungle so less time to get ganked.W max is just awful.It gives you 45 damage in your all in compared to 40 damage in your trade/poke.How does that make any sense to max?
Not to mention how easy it is to dodge or to just stop your jump.
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On July 16 2014 22:07 Kenpark wrote:
I really like Riots effort to bring champs like Ahri or Kha back in comp and I dont get all the uproar of not nerfing Lee. These are just fun/rewarding to play AND to watch champs. I mean it`s not like all champs have some inherent right to be viable or op at a certain point in time.
I guess its preference but I´d rather play or watch Ahri vs Zed mid then say Lulu vs Ori.
The thing is every champion that saw high pick rates for long periods of time have been nerfed (such as lucian was this patch), Riot doesnt want 1 champion to be the best for a certain position for long.
Yet Lee and Thresh have been at that spot for several seasons now, that's why people complain.
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Watching the cowboy Yasuo skin, it's almost on par with the Steel Legion Lux as far as hard-to-see particles go.
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United States10467 Posts
On July 16 2014 22:10 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 22:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
I guess no one maxes W over E anymore.
I can agree with maxing Q before finishing E or W. I do that, and it definitely makes her strong even in the midgame.
Pushing faster has its advantages and disadvantages as it makes it harder to freeze lanes or keep them near your tower. I don't think that's the main reason why people max E. Yes it is.You push you go farm jungle so less time to get ganked.W max is just awful.It gives you 45 damage in your all in compared to 40 damage in your trade/poke.How does that make any sense to max? Not to mention how easy it is to dodge or to just stop your jump.
Q max technically gives you the most damage in an all in.
I did some calculations back in S2.
Assuming 18.5 AD
Level 1 Q adds: 118.8348 damage over 7 seconds
Level 3 Q adds: 178.2522
Level 5 Q adds: 237.6696
Level 7 Q adds: 297.087
But you rarely get those full 7 seconds to trade and even in an allin exhaust will likely cut that damage in half but even if it doesn't you've potentially given your opponent time to live which is time to trade with you.
If you just E someone they'll heal back up to full or get shielded. It'll be as if you did no damage to them when the all-in happens. In an all-in I'd rather have 40 damage instantly that could reset and do AoE damage than 45 single target damage over 5 seconds that can be cut in half by exhaust and can not reset.
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Riot is a business first and foremost. the backlash from nerfing one of the most popular champions in the game is something they don't want to bear. They've also shown they are unwilling, for uncertain reasons, to bring the usefulness of other champions to lee sin's level. Whats left is a situation where they try to placate everyone by rotating who is on top with lee sin over time, without actually making anyone very happy for long except those of the popular champions.
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On July 16 2014 22:27 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 22:10 nafta wrote:On July 16 2014 22:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
I guess no one maxes W over E anymore.
I can agree with maxing Q before finishing E or W. I do that, and it definitely makes her strong even in the midgame.
Pushing faster has its advantages and disadvantages as it makes it harder to freeze lanes or keep them near your tower. I don't think that's the main reason why people max E. Yes it is.You push you go farm jungle so less time to get ganked.W max is just awful.It gives you 45 damage in your all in compared to 40 damage in your trade/poke.How does that make any sense to max? Not to mention how easy it is to dodge or to just stop your jump. Q max technically gives you the most damage in an all in. I did some calculations back in S2. Assuming 18.5 AD Level 1 Q adds: 118.8348 damage over 7 seconds Level 3 Q adds: 178.2522 Level 5 Q adds: 237.6696 Level 7 Q adds: 297.087 But you rarely get those full 7 seconds to trade and even in an allin exhaust will likely cut that damage in half but even if it doesn't you've potentially given your opponent time to live which is time to trade with you. If you just E someone they'll heal back up to full or get shielded. It'll be as if you did no damage to them when the all-in happens. In an all-in I'd rather have 40 damage instantly that could reset and do AoE damage than 45 single target damage over 5 seconds that can be cut in half by exhaust and can not reset.
And your w can't get exhausted?Like sure e can get shielded or healed back up.That is how poking/trading works.Don't see how that is relevant.
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Lucian is now hella fun in normals anyway. I've been trying out the new Essence Reaver into Ghostblade/LW whatever. So much dashes, its like playing an easier Vayne hueh hueh. He now lives and dies by smart use of his passive and is probably closer to what Riot wanted when they designed him
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On July 16 2014 13:16 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 13:07 FinestHour wrote:
its ok u just have to itemize all of your gold and masteries and rune page into 40% cdr and do no right click damage compared to other ads
but clearly its all worth cuz u have a free dash that requires you to right click someone with 500 range whereupon the instant you try to trigger your passive to get the dash you're gonna get nuked by their ap mid dived by bruiser tank and right clicked down by the other ad who isnt 500 range Rip lucian. At least senna no longer alone.
I lol'd, thanks for making my Wednesday less crappy.
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People complaining about range nerfs are just so delusional it's hurting. Like, how perfect do you know howmuch 550 range WAS, like you were always last hitting/fighting/skirmishing at the max range of the champ. And it's not like 50 range is THAT much anyway. It does become a little more painful, ofcourse, but with his high mobility it certainly shouldn't hurt Lucian too much.
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11589 Posts
I had an idea about essence reaver getting a BF upgrade, I never thought that they would just make it a BF item, lol.
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On July 16 2014 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
People complaining about range nerfs are just so delusional it's hurting. Like, how perfect do you know howmuch 550 range WAS, like you were always last hitting/fighting/skirmishing at the max range of the champ. And it's not like 50 range is THAT much anyway. It does become a little more painful, ofcourse, but with his high mobility it certainly shouldn't hurt Lucian too much.
There's a setting that adds a range indicator to a-moving. When I'm on ADC I use it all the time.
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EPT
