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On July 11 2014 19:08 Alaric wrote:
I'm talking about "rotations between lanes", eg. moving from mid to bot because someone's been pushing it and there's a huge wave there, and suddenly SURPRISE! there were 3 enemies in your jungle waiting for you to do it and now you're dead. This kind of picks doesn't require hard initiation because you often have the element of surprise and since it's often outnumbering, you don't need to lock down 4 people just so they can't protect your real target.
It's hard to start a teamfight with Charm or Cocoon, but on the other hand Unstoppable Force generally isn't required to blow up a squishy who didn't expect you 3v1.
See, Alistar is someone who would be really good there. You generally want at least some lockdown to reduce the chance of them getting away. This is something which I can think the post on initiation and disengage was missing: the type of cc you wanted depending on your team comp. I think Alistar is better for picks than Malphite, because his main form of lockdown isn't tied to an ultimate ability which you don't want to use on a single target. Malphite loses a lot of his threat once the ult is gone. However Malph is obviously the better initiator.
And I think Click is definitely right. Your CC pretty much dictates your team. You wouldn't want a Shyvanna and Nidalee (at least old Nid, not sure how new one plays) together, because one of them is worse in the situation the other is good in. Shyvanna has no disengage, and Nid wants to make sure the other team gets hit by spears for as long as possible before a fight starts.
The other thing I think Click missed is what you have around that CC. See, when Malph goes in, you want a team that can immediately follow up and take advantage of his ult. A mage like Ori is great for this because of the ball, while an AD like MF with her ult is great.
When deciding a comp, you should definitely decide around what type of CC you're focusing on, and build from there. Figure out which champions best fit to not only satisfy a vision of what'll happen, but fit into lanes well (if you want Ali and Thresh, who's gonna go where). Damage and defensive stats come after all this, because this is what dictates the actual strategy of your team.
I think an ideal poke comp would look something like: Trundle, Ziggs, Kogma, Alistar and Vi.
We start with Trundle, who has great disengage in pillar (which can also offer light initiation) followed by the main source of poke damage. The reason for Ziggs instead of Nidalee is because Ziggs now has more reliable poke than Nid as well as a bit of usefulness in an actual teamfight. Next, we pick Kogma, who works great with disengage because of his high damage, long range and low mobility. Alistar follows because more disengage works really well and the comp needs a main frontliner in case a fight does break out (and Alistar is also pretty good at picking off people with low health thanks to WQ). Finally, a strong ganking jungler to make sure that the weaker lane of Kog and Ali don't fall too behind, and another source of lockdown lategame for Kog is there (as well as a little bit of extra disengage in her ult).
Everything is designed around your primary type of CC (disengage) and everything else comes after. Whether the teamcomp I described I gave is optimal or not, if someone can give a better example it would probably more clearly demonstrate the idea.
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On July 11 2014 21:08 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 19:08 Alaric wrote:
I'm talking about "rotations between lanes", eg. moving from mid to bot because someone's been pushing it and there's a huge wave there, and suddenly SURPRISE! there were 3 enemies in your jungle waiting for you to do it and now you're dead. This kind of picks doesn't require hard initiation because you often have the element of surprise and since it's often outnumbering, you don't need to lock down 4 people just so they can't protect your real target.
It's hard to start a teamfight with Charm or Cocoon, but on the other hand Unstoppable Force generally isn't required to blow up a squishy who didn't expect you 3v1. See, Alistar is someone who would be really good there. You generally want at least some lockdown to reduce the chance of them getting away. This is something which I can think the post on initiation and disengage was missing: the type of cc you wanted depending on your team comp. I think Alistar is better for picks than Malphite, because his main form of lockdown isn't tied to an ultimate ability which you don't want to use on a single target. Malphite loses a lot of his threat once the ult is gone. However Malph is obviously the better initiator. And I think Click is definitely right. Your CC pretty much dictates your team. You wouldn't want a Shyvanna and Nidalee (at least old Nid, not sure how new one plays) together, because one of them is worse in the situation the other is good in. Shyvanna has no disengage, and Nid wants to make sure the other team gets hit by spears for as long as possible before a fight starts. The other thing I think Click missed is what you have around that CC. See, when Malph goes in, you want a team that can immediately follow up and take advantage of his ult. A mage like Ori is great for this because of the ball, while an AD like MF with her ult is great. When deciding a comp, you should definitely decide around what type of CC you're focusing on, and build from there. Figure out which champions best fit to not only satisfy a vision of what'll happen, but fit into lanes well (if you want Ali and Thresh, who's gonna go where). Damage and defensive stats come after all this, because this is what dictates the actual strategy of your team. I think an ideal poke comp would look something like: Trundle, Ziggs, Kogma, Alistar and Vi. We start with Trundle, who has great disengage in pillar (which can also offer light initiation) followed by the main source of poke damage. The reason for Ziggs instead of Nidalee is because Ziggs now has more reliable poke than Nid as well as a bit of usefulness in an actual teamfight. Next, we pick Kogma, who works great with disengage because of his high damage, long range and low mobility. Alistar follows because more disengage works really well and the comp needs a main frontliner in case a fight does break out (and Alistar is also pretty good at picking off people with low health thanks to WQ). Finally, a strong ganking jungler to make sure that the weaker lane of Kog and Ali don't fall too behind, and another source of lockdown lategame for Kog is there (as well as a little bit of extra disengage in her ult). Everything is designed around your primary type of CC (disengage) and everything else comes after. Whether the teamcomp I described I gave is optimal or not, if someone can give a better example it would probably more clearly demonstrate the idea.
One of the best uses for poke comps is sieging turrets. I think that you need an ADC with an escape for that so I'd rather have Caitlyn. Besides that you think too much about disengage/cleanup with as effect that you don't really have that much poke after all.
My ideal poke comp would be something along the lines of Mundo/Trundle, Elise, Ziggs, Caitlyn, Karma. Trundle/Mundo would have to go full tank, but with the amount of damage the rest of the team provides that would not be a problem.
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i just wanted to add to this that ali is a really strong pick as a jungle/support vs teams with fiora/yasuo/lee and the likes. spammable aoe hardcc is really really strong.
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On July 11 2014 20:59 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:32 JazzVortical wrote:On July 11 2014 19:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
I really really like the spot galio is at right now. If his services are ever required he'll be a force in those games. What? He needs help, like, a fair bit of it. He's really really strong at his current form. he's situational though. i think he'd be viable with a different draft format allowing you to use him.
I wouldn't mind hearing which situation you find him really really strong in.
He's usable when the enemy team has no CC whatsoever. As long as his ult stays the way it is now, where a slight breeze knocks him out of it, there are much better choices. Not to mention the reliance on flash.
I like Galio, but he needs help. The good news is that his Q, W and E are all in decent shape.
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On July 11 2014 21:29 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 11 2014 20:32 JazzVortical wrote:On July 11 2014 19:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
I really really like the spot galio is at right now. If his services are ever required he'll be a force in those games. What? He needs help, like, a fair bit of it. He's really really strong at his current form. he's situational though. i think he'd be viable with a different draft format allowing you to use him. I wouldn't mind hearing which situation you find him really really strong in. He's usable when the enemy team has no CC whatsoever. As long as his ult stays the way it is now, where a slight breeze knocks him out of it, there are much better choices. Not to mention the reliance on flash. I like Galio, but he needs help. The good news is that his Q, W and E are all in decent shape.
his ultimate isn't an initiation anymore.there are always going to be more powerful initiators in the game. his stats are all very good base and per level. his base damage on resolute smite is very high especially with his passive boosting it naturally by a bit. bulwark has always been an insanely powerful ability, a utility point in gust is good enough to get you through most of the game his ultimate should be seen as one of the stronger anti asssassin spells in the game along with bulwark but also a good counter initiation spell. He's also a rather ambiguous pick. as he can 2v1 as a support, 1v1 as a mid or jungle all very well. giving him strength as a pick in a different draft format.
Given a situation where you are being dove on, you can use idol as you see them jumping in, they can no longer chain their spells and are immediately forced to attack you. if zed ultimates, Idol can drag zed out of the ultimate asap and prevent the ability chaining, if lee sin lands a Q and starts to go in, idol prevents the flash kick initiation. LB can't jump back to her marks immediately and alistar can't chain a headbutt pulverize, thresh can't setup into a flay box from a death sentence, ect. all the chain spell dives get broken up by idol of durand. the cooldown isn't too prohibitive, which is enough to use it as you need it without worrying too much about wasting it. his other spells are also on short cooldowns so he's far from an ultimate bot. and if you don't use it for that, waiting out the intiation and then wandering in and using it to buy time for your team to re-position is also good. if they are saving CC to stop the counter initiation then they aren't using it for the initiation which gives you the upper hand, as your spells are pretty well designed to keep someone alive if they are initiated on.
He's good, but i couldn't see him picked very frequently at all without some change to the draft format, because his value is that of being good at onee thing in many roles, and thats not exactly meaningful in the current draft format.
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We'd already discussed Galio here and that was the conclusion: "Galio's pretty good if the enemy team is full of non-Udy/Xin/Garen(/Braum now, zzz) wanting to dive you", quickly followed by "Yeah, well, too bad the current meta isn't about 4-protect-1 and diving".
Now we've got the 4-protect-1 somewhat, but you kill the others with poke and lobbing long-range shit at them, there's still no divers and burst isn't that popular ('cept when it's tacked on top of a lot of other shit, hi Ziggs) so Galio still isn't too good.
And I had posted something about teamcomps but I guess I forgot to it "send", whatever it's on my pc at home I'll post it in 2 hours.
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Dunno why you think xerath sucks. His dmg is pretty ridic, way higher than before. Yea, his ulti is underwhelming compared to how it was before, but I'd even dare to say he is secret OP. Maybe some QoL buffs to his ult and he will be top pick 
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On July 11 2014 22:20 napo wrote:Dunno why you think xerath sucks. His dmg is pretty ridic, way higher than before. Yea, his ulti is underwhelming compared to how it was before, but I'd even dare to say he is secret OP. Maybe some QoL buffs to his ult and he will be top pick
I think his damage is less than before, at least overall, he was AP that ignored Mres. he had 3000 magic damage burst to people with 250 or less Mres. he's now better vs squishies but eh.
But focusing on what galio's strength is, his ability to keep his team alive past initiation, and his long range spells. he'd fit if there was value to drafting him before 5th pick. but with ban 3 pick 5 there isn't any reason to.
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in listing the pros to galio you named two champions that can cancel idol without stepping inside of it...
honestly if he had his ult damage more front loaded he'd be good, I was about to say fine but I agree he is fine already, it's just that average in a world of 115 champions is ~50th best
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did any1 bought soul stealer vlad? is the Q sound softer than the older skin?
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On July 11 2014 16:43 Slusher wrote:
After playing Darius a bunch the last couple of days my only qualm with the hero is I feel like they should revert back to having the .5 sec grace period for ult resets even if a teammate gets the kill that he had on launch, now that his ult eventually goes on cd anyway. That said I have a feeling he's in Rito's we have plans to rework him at some point so he can get fucked until that happens bin that so many champions seem to find their way into for years at a time.
It's interesting that you think this. I play a fair bit of Darius, and I don't run into that issue very often. I understand what you mean, and I think it would be nice to have. Of course, assuming that I understand you correctly, I don't think that's something that he really needs. That's just my speculation though, so take it with a grain of salt.
I will say the buff that they gave him in (I think) 4.0, where his recast time for his ult was increased from 12 to 20 seconds, was surprisingly very noticeable. It was a bit more of a powerful buff than I anticipated, especially in Dominion. Again, these are just my opinions.
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There are a lot of solutions to fixing Galio, most of which revolve around fixing how tenacity affects his ult.
1. Make his ult duration longer (downside: champs who don't build tenacity get wrecked, but then there's the incentive to pick champs or itemize around it)
2. Attach "% tenacity ignored" to his ult, increasing each level of his ult
3. Give Galio scaling tenacity reduction on his passive. It would also affect the slow from his Q (and red buff/ crystal rod/other item slows)
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On July 11 2014 23:33 Slusher wrote:
in listing the pros to galio you named two champions that can cancel idol without stepping inside of it...
honestly if he had his ult damage more front loaded he'd be good, I was about to say fine but I agree he is fine already, it's just that average in a world of 115 champions is ~50th best
its not about keeping the ult from getting cancelled, but to force an initiation on an ally to fail. if you press R as alistar gos to headbutt pulv -> say shockwave from ori, then alistar can't get the pulverize off in time, and the headbutt target flies out of range of the shockwave and gives your team time to react and have the shockwave only be on you.. as for lee kicking someone into galio, again thats not exactly what we're talking about either. its not a full channelled ulti i'm talking about, its more the whole thing that it directly prevents those initiation combos on your team. so when lee sin shockwave's a teammate and goes to follow up with a flash dragon kick or something to force a fight, you use ultimate and as he dashes in he gets taunted, and can't follow through with the initiation and he gets blown up and your teammate gets away.
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If it's just that, Morgana does it better already because she makes the target immune to cc.
The edge that Galio'd have is that he doesn't just disrupt a combo, he pins the divers down, and allows to reposition. It also prevents defensive measures.
Someone like Zed or Kha'Zix could run back out against Black Shield or Kayle ult (or just ignore it in the case of Black Shield because they aren't reliant on cc), however if they get taunted they're sitting there, ready to get counter-initiated on and bursted down without the ability to use their escapes.
Thing is, this isn't how the game (or the dives) is played right now, so there's no need for Idol of Duran.
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On July 12 2014 00:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
There are a lot of solutions to fixing Galio, most of which revolve around fixing how tenacity affects his ult.
1. Make his ult duration longer (downside: champs who don't build tenacity get wrecked, but then there's the incentive to pick champs or itemize around it)
2. Attach "% tenacity ignored" to his ult, increasing each level of his ult
3. Give Galio scaling tenacity reduction on his passive. It would also affect the slow from his Q (and red buff/ crystal rod/other item slows)
No.
Just make him do his R's base damage over time, and the accumulated damage at the end. Problem solved.
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On July 11 2014 12:18 Slusher wrote:
have you seen relegated teams play challenger teams?? not interested.
LMQ? SKT1K was basically a relegation team at one point...
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On July 12 2014 00:32 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 00:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
There are a lot of solutions to fixing Galio, most of which revolve around fixing how tenacity affects his ult.
1. Make his ult duration longer (downside: champs who don't build tenacity get wrecked, but then there's the incentive to pick champs or itemize around it)
2. Attach "% tenacity ignored" to his ult, increasing each level of his ult
3. Give Galio scaling tenacity reduction on his passive. It would also affect the slow from his Q (and red buff/ crystal rod/other item slows) No. Just make him do his R's base damage over time, and the accumulated damage at the end. Problem solved.
Then there's less chance for counterplay and it's almost identical to Nunu ult.
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On July 12 2014 00:31 Alaric wrote:
If it's just that, Morgana does it better already because she makes the target immune to cc.
The edge that Galio'd have is that he doesn't just disrupt a combo, he pins the divers down, and allows to reposition. It also prevents defensive measures.
Someone like Zed or Kha'Zix could run back out against Black Shield or Kayle ult (or just ignore it in the case of Black Shield because they aren't reliant on cc), however if they get taunted they're sitting there, ready to get counter-initiated on and bursted down without the ability to use their escapes.
Thing is, this isn't how the game (or the dives) is played right now, so there's no need for Idol of Duran.
yeah its not just the interrupted combo but the guy was misinterpreting a small section of my original post so i was correcting that. Galios range is also pretty useful in poke wars as bulwark lets him take hits from the poke instead of his team and barely get scratched, and smite/gust are both pretty long range and can be used to force an engage if need be.
if you wanted galio to be a top pick, he only needs his ultimate CD dropped by 15-20 seconds. but like i said, he's good now but he's not going to be picked except in that situation where all 9 other picks line up perfectly, unless the draft mode changes and he can be an earlier pick because of how many roles he can fill.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2014 00:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
There are a lot of solutions to fixing Galio, most of which revolve around fixing how tenacity affects his ult.
1. Make his ult duration longer (downside: champs who don't build tenacity get wrecked, but then there's the incentive to pick champs or itemize around it)
2. Attach "% tenacity ignored" to his ult, increasing each level of his ult
3. Give Galio scaling tenacity reduction on his passive. It would also affect the slow from his Q (and red buff/ crystal rod/other item slows)
You could start by removing the arbitrary 25 range reduction on the damage radius for canceling it early rather than letting it channel completely.
It's a lot simpler than introducing new mechanics.
EDIT: I'm not even sure how that got into the game when similar ultis like Nunu's don't lose 25 range randomly for being canceled early. It probably happened when they buffed the damage range on his ult to 600, but forgot to add the change to canceled ults or something.
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The Shyvana/Nidalee couple is bad because in lane you lack the lockdown (pre-6) to prevent someone from just walking away (although in reality Nid needs to tag with her passive for Pounce range, and then Shyvana can tank a tower if needed and they have the mobility+sustained damage to kill), not because they lack cc per see.
Vi and Xin have cc for example, but they were still bad with pre-rework Nidalee because she wanted to poke while they're all-in champions without reach (by "reach" I mean the ability to do stuff at range without using your body; Vi can engage super far but she dashes to do it so it's not "reach" like Mundo's cleavers are for example).
And that's why I made the distinction: you can have a bunch of cc for your teamfighting comp, if they don't allow you to force a fight then they'll never be used and it won't matter if you have them or not.
In the current state of the game, even Leona's ult isn't "hard" enough initiation anymore.
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EPT
