EPT[Patch 4.11] Maokai Rework General Discussion - Page 57
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On July 11 2014 16:43 Slusher wrote: After playing Darius a bunch the last couple of days my only qualm with the hero is I feel like they should revert back to having the .5 sec grace period for ult resets even if a teammate gets the kill that he had on launch, now that his ult eventually goes on cd anyway. That said I have a feeling he's in Rito's we have plans to rework him at some point so he can get fucked until that happens bin that so many champions seem to find their way into for years at a time. Yeah he's been mentioned several times over the last year or so. Maybe he'll be in the 'fighter rework' that's been bandied around several times (or changes will come when the dunkmaster skin comes out  ) | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
too often players are fixated on damage type distribution, "counterpicks" and a even mix between tankyness and damagyness. I think all of these factors are minor and even missleading/distracting from the real issue: How are you gonna start or stop teamfights/ganks? Since the penetration changes (buffs) and the general nerfs to defensive items (look the history of some of the most used defensive items) damage type distribution isn't that much of an issue anymore. Also the introduction of several very potent assassins such as Kha and Zed helped to lower the influence of damage type distribution. I won't dare to say it's an non-issue but it was much more of a factor when everyone was tankier. The needed tankyness/damagyness of a team is closely related to the damage type distribution. Against a ad/magical centric team it is adviced to draft tankyer, because bruisers tend to be stronger when they can focus their defense to less stats. Aside from that there is not much need for a "tank" and there never was. What the dota community learned a long time ago but got lost in the lol community is that "tanking" doesn't automatically happen just because you draft 1 or 2 durable champions. What marksmen/mages/assassins need is not a tank but several initators and/disengagers: CC, which frees up time and space for them to deal damage. I don't think i have to go too much into counterpicking. The counterpicking phase is basicly over. People have gotten around the fact that champions tend to do better/worse against others and realized that true counterpicks rarely exist. There are still some drafting clowns who do "counterpicking", without backing their pick up with experience and then wonder why they are behind during the laneing phase, or get ganked, or overfocus on the lane and miss ganks/objectives. With that i have come to the most important parts of lol in general: ganks and objectives. Those are the only actions which not only make your team stronger but theirs weaker and are thus the most impactful and important actions in the game. Nobody would dare to say that having reliable initiation and or disenage is not the most important factor in a gank. Yes both do not only rely on CC but also on mobility and of course there needs to be some sort of damage and tankyness around to fight reasonably but the lack of those is almost never an issue, especially with how every champion scales so similarly to the other (in strength) and has such similar base attributes and base damage. The real difference is in how the start and or stop fights and how that synergizes with other champions. And to spice this argument up a bit: As a midlaner, would you rather face a lux (mid) + jarvan (jungle) combo or a nidalee (mid) + shyvana (jungle) combo? | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
For 99% of solo queue games drafting isn't that big of an issue. Most of the time you're going to have better luck winning if people just played their most comfortable champion regardless of team comp. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On July 11 2014 17:43 wei2coolman wrote: .... that is a non sequitur For 99% of solo queue games drafting isn't that big of an issue. Most of the time you're going to have better luck winning if people just played their most comfortable champion regardless of team comp. no. drafting is a big issue in soloq. and the most important issue is CC. because it makes fights easy, straightforward and lowers the chance of bad behaviour like chasing/overextending, because under CC people can't escape as easily to safety, it's easyer to land skillshots and it's easyer to focus fire. you can't just say "doesn't matter in soloq". That's not a reason. I would say drafting sufficient CC has a huge impact in soloq because of the the reasons i mentioned here and in my longer post above. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 11 2014 12:55 sung_moon wrote: Yo those new Mecha skins. Jaeger Malph/Aatrox. Don't even play those champs and I would pay like double for em. The splashes are amazing (they even include the Yordles!), sadly the ingame models are really really poor in comparison (mainly the textures).  On July 11 2014 16:43 Slusher wrote: After playing Darius a bunch the last couple of days my only qualm with the hero is I feel like they should revert back to having the .5 sec grace period for ult resets even if a teammate gets the kill that he had on launch, now that his ult eventually goes on cd anyway. That said I have a feeling he's in Rito's we have plans to rework him at some point so he can get fucked until that happens bin that so many champions seem to find their way into for years at a time. There's already one, it's just shorter. Let me rephrase it to show you how absurd that delay was: "Cho still gets the stack if the person he Feasts survives it but dies up to 0.5s later". It's up to the Darius player to now how much damage his ult can do and to cast it knowing this. You just have to click on your target and look at their HP, really. On July 11 2014 17:29 clickrush wrote: + Show Spoiler + one of the things alot of players don't realize is that the absolutely most important factor in a draft is crowdcontrol and specifically initiation/disengage and how it lines up in a practical situation. too often players are fixated on damage type distribution, "counterpicks" and a even mix between tankyness and damagyness. I think all of these factors are minor and even missleading/distracting from the real issue: How are you gonna start or stop teamfights/ganks? Since the penetration changes (buffs) and the general nerfs to defensive items (look the history of some of the most used defensive items) damage type distribution isn't that much of an issue anymore. Also the introduction of several very potent assassins such as Kha and Zed helped to lower the influence of damage type distribution. I won't dare to say it's an non-issue but it was much more of a factor when everyone was tankier. The needed tankyness/damagyness of a team is closely related to the damage type distribution. Against a ad/magical centric team it is adviced to draft tankyer, because bruisers tend to be stronger when they can focus their defense to less stats. Aside from that there is not much need for a "tank" and there never was. What the dota community learned a long time ago but got lost in the lol community is that "tanking" doesn't automatically happen just because you draft 1 or 2 durable champions. What marksmen/mages/assassins need is not a tank but several initators and/disengagers: CC, which frees up time and space for them to deal damage. I don't think i have to go too much into counterpicking. The counterpicking phase is basicly over. People have gotten around the fact that champions tend to do better/worse against others and realized that true counterpicks rarely exist. There are still some drafting clowns who do "counterpicking", without backing their pick up with experience and then wonder why they are behind during the laneing phase, or get ganked, or overfocus on the lane and miss ganks/objectives. With that i have come to the most important parts of lol in general: ganks and objectives. Those are the only actions which not only make your team stronger but theirs weaker and are thus the most impactful and important actions in the game. Nobody would dare to say that having reliable initiation and or disenage is not the most important factor in a gank. Yes both do not only rely on CC but also on mobility and of course there needs to be some sort of damage and tankyness around to fight reasonably but the lack of those is almost never an issue, especially with how every champion scales so similarly to the other (in strength) and has such similar base attributes and base damage. The real difference is in how the start and or stop fights and how that synergizes with other champions. And to spice this argument up a bit: As a midlaner, would you rather face a lux (mid) + jarvan (jungle) combo or a nidalee (mid) + shyvana (jungle) combo? The damage distribution is still important because games always go very late now (sure by DotA standards it's actually early), meaning it doesn't matter if Randuin's and Sunfire were nerfed, you'll get to buy both and Tabi before the all AD team can close out the game anyway. Previously you still had a very limited window, but it existed because you could get an early advantage and snowball it. Now that Riot fought so hard to destroy it utterly, you don't even have that anymore. You don't race the clock, you fight the whole ecosystem when you go for a full physical/magic comp because the way Riot changed the game recently it's an anomaly when a team manages such a big lead that they can close out by midgame. In competitive play there aren't that many ganks anyway. It's more about the ability to make picks when people start rotating because the laning phase has been changed so much. And yeah, sure, no counterpicking, people will still pick Vi once Morgana has been locked in, in pro play. Or not. The 3 important things now are lategame scaling ('cause games always go late, the reason Twitch and Lucian were picked was because they were always good, we saw more Tristana and Kog now that their relative power drops in lane/midgame have been alleviated by itemisation changes), wave clear (because you need to push but also to defend against sieges, and cancer Ziggs has set a new Anivia-bar for teamcomps), and hard initiation (which is incredibly hard to come buy atm, hence the pick comps which champs like Thresh, Elise, etc. I dunno, give us back Alistar, Malphite, Zac and co.). | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On July 11 2014 17:59 Alaric wrote: The splashes are amazing (they even include the Yordles!), sadly the ingame models are really really poor in comparison (mainly the textures). There's already one, it's just shorter. Let me rephrase it to show you how absurd that delay was: "Cho still gets the stack if the person he Feasts survives it but dies up to 0.5s later". It's up to the Darius player to now how much damage his ult can do and to cast it knowing this. You just have to click on your target and look at their HP, really. The damage distribution is still important because games always go very late now (sure by DotA standards it's actually early), meaning it doesn't matter if Randuin's and Sunfire were nerfed, you'll get to buy both and Tabi before the all AD team can close out the game anyway. Previously you still had a very limited window, but it existed because you could get an early advantage and snowball it. Now that Riot fought so hard to destroy it utterly, you don't even have that anymore. You don't race the clock, you fight the whole ecosystem when you go for a full physical/magic comp because the way Riot changed the game recently it's an anomaly when a team manages such a big lead that they can close out by midgame. In competitive play there aren't that many ganks anyway. It's more about the ability to make picks when people start rotating because the laning phase has been changed so much. And yeah, sure, no counterpicking, people will still pick Vi once Morgana has been locked in, in pro play. Or not. The 3 important things now are lategame scaling ('cause games always go late, the reason Twitch and Lucian were picked was because they were always good, we saw more Tristana and Kog now that their relative power drops in lane/midgame have been alleviated by itemisation changes), wave clear (because you need to push but also to defend against sieges, and cancer Ziggs has set a new Anivia-bar for teamcomps), and hard initiation (which is incredibly hard to come buy atm, hence the pick comps which champs like Thresh, Elise, etc. I dunno, give us back Alistar, Malphite, Zac and co.). I agree with most what you say but I just wanted to mention that "make picks while rotating" is just a special case of ganking. They just combine ganking with farming/pushing in a smart way. Also the word rotation is overused by alot of casters, the immediatly say "rotation" when someone ganks but in most cases you a) don't know what the intention of the player was and b) when the gank happens you don't know if he is gonna go on ganking (in this case it's not a rotation) or if he does a rotation so immediatly calling it one is preemptive. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's hard to start a teamfight with Charm or Cocoon, but on the other hand Unstoppable Force generally isn't required to blow up a squishy who didn't expect you 3v1. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On July 11 2014 19:22 PrinceXizor wrote: I really really like the spot galio is at right now. If his services are ever required he'll be a force in those games. What? He needs help, like, a fair bit of it. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On July 11 2014 17:59 Alaric wrote: There's already one, it's just shorter. Let me rephrase it to show you how absurd that delay was: "Cho still gets the stack if the person he Feasts survives it but dies up to 0.5s later". It's up to the Darius player to now how much damage his ult can do and to cast it knowing this. You just have to click on your target and look at their HP, really. Hey man, I'd much rather take a full Reset @rank3(which would still circumvent the lane snowball issue which caused the nerf), but the fact of the matter is it isn't a full reset anymore, so I want something in return. I also find Cho as a poor example because #TheDream for a Cho player is to have 6 stacks going into a fight so he can just bit the first person hit by rupture, to either push them out of the fight or get a target low for his team to focus. Darius is actually in a lose lose situation as the moment you actually press the R button you put a clock on yourself, even if you do it perfectly. also trying to hit the guy who you can tell will give you the reset for absolute certian over the "maybe" will get you kited to your death in a lot of situations melees without gapclosers can't be choosers . | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 11 2014 20:32 JazzVortical wrote: What? He needs help, like, a fair bit of it. He's really really strong at his current form. he's situational though. i think he'd be viable with a different draft format allowing you to use him. | ||
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