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[Patch 4.11] Maokai Rework General Discussion - Page 40

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Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
July 07 2014 22:45 GMT
#781
I wonder how much that PBE nerf is going to affect Lucian's skin sales.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 07 2014 22:51 GMT
#782
On July 08 2014 07:17 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2014 07:06 IMoperator wrote:
On July 08 2014 07:00 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, if I had to hit Lucian I'd probably raise his mana costs and/or his cooldowns, since his passive relies on cooldowns too and you rarely see marksmen itemise CDR so it hits him harder than, say, Ziggs. This way he could retain some poke (but it wouldn't be overwhelming) and his trades would still be powerful but he'd have windows of vulnerability between them (if necessary hit his passive a bit so he wants to trigger it several times over a single Q+passive -> autowon trade), or if hitting the mana costs he'd get oom faster if he wants to be relentless, cutting him from his passive when he can't cast anymore.
It'd also make it harder for him to shove so he wouldn't be able to simply deny interactions this way.

He'd also still have strong burst and clean-up in teamfights, but once his shit's on cd he'd be vulnerable (and contribute less) for longer. Maybe hit his base AD or AS/level a bit to reduce his dps while his passive isn't available too.

Not sure how pertinent that'd be, but Riot certainly wouldn't ever touch the idea of toying with mana costs with a 10-foot pole.
Marksmen are probably the champions for whom it's the easiest to deal with though, since they don't itemise mana or mp5, they are ranged which allows them to keep pushing/farming when their spells aren't available if need be, and they're less likely to get tanky/bring TP/have innate sustain like most offlaners do. Since they tend to stay in lane more, balancing around their power level with mana costs makes more sense, especially since not having mana doesn't make them as hapless as mages.

imo, the only thing he needs is a cooldown on his passive. This way he cant chain his skills and passive and do massive amounts of damage really quickly. That's why he's such a good duelist and so good in lane.

I think Riot doesn't want to do that. Lucian's passive is very unique in the sense that it's the only damaging passive that doesn't have a cooldown. It also makes Lucian's playstyle flow better - thematically he's supposed to be the Matrix-Equilibrium gunslinger trope and the no cd passive is what really helps tie that theme together.

That being said, they could nerf the damage on his passive. Maybe 50% to 30% or something. Or maybe lower the cast range on his Q and Q only. 550 autoattack range to 500 kills the black guy.

RIP Lucian


Lucian seems to me to be the spiritual successor to late S2 Corki/S3 worlds Corki, in that the botlane is generally unhealthy when he is strong because he is good in lane, while also being good in the key midgame fights. This meant for Corki (means for Lucian) that against most other ADs there is a huge period of time for him to amass a lead that will take till the 40 minute mark for you to outscale him. Graves seems like the healthier Caster-ADC model because he can get bullied be equally skilled players on long range champs, and falls off much harder due to his kit.
Freeeeeeedom
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
July 07 2014 23:17 GMT
#783
On July 08 2014 07:51 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2014 07:17 Ryuu314 wrote:
On July 08 2014 07:06 IMoperator wrote:
On July 08 2014 07:00 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, if I had to hit Lucian I'd probably raise his mana costs and/or his cooldowns, since his passive relies on cooldowns too and you rarely see marksmen itemise CDR so it hits him harder than, say, Ziggs. This way he could retain some poke (but it wouldn't be overwhelming) and his trades would still be powerful but he'd have windows of vulnerability between them (if necessary hit his passive a bit so he wants to trigger it several times over a single Q+passive -> autowon trade), or if hitting the mana costs he'd get oom faster if he wants to be relentless, cutting him from his passive when he can't cast anymore.
It'd also make it harder for him to shove so he wouldn't be able to simply deny interactions this way.

He'd also still have strong burst and clean-up in teamfights, but once his shit's on cd he'd be vulnerable (and contribute less) for longer. Maybe hit his base AD or AS/level a bit to reduce his dps while his passive isn't available too.

Not sure how pertinent that'd be, but Riot certainly wouldn't ever touch the idea of toying with mana costs with a 10-foot pole.
Marksmen are probably the champions for whom it's the easiest to deal with though, since they don't itemise mana or mp5, they are ranged which allows them to keep pushing/farming when their spells aren't available if need be, and they're less likely to get tanky/bring TP/have innate sustain like most offlaners do. Since they tend to stay in lane more, balancing around their power level with mana costs makes more sense, especially since not having mana doesn't make them as hapless as mages.

imo, the only thing he needs is a cooldown on his passive. This way he cant chain his skills and passive and do massive amounts of damage really quickly. That's why he's such a good duelist and so good in lane.

I think Riot doesn't want to do that. Lucian's passive is very unique in the sense that it's the only damaging passive that doesn't have a cooldown. It also makes Lucian's playstyle flow better - thematically he's supposed to be the Matrix-Equilibrium gunslinger trope and the no cd passive is what really helps tie that theme together.

That being said, they could nerf the damage on his passive. Maybe 50% to 30% or something. Or maybe lower the cast range on his Q and Q only. 550 autoattack range to 500 kills the black guy.

RIP Lucian


Lucian seems to me to be the spiritual successor to late S2 Corki/S3 worlds Corki, in that the botlane is generally unhealthy when he is strong because he is good in lane, while also being good in the key midgame fights. This meant for Corki (means for Lucian) that against most other ADs there is a huge period of time for him to amass a lead that will take till the 40 minute mark for you to outscale him. Graves seems like the healthier Caster-ADC model because he can get bullied be equally skilled players on long range champs, and falls off much harder due to his kit.


Almost like he still doesnt have respectable burst, free tank stats, a blind, and a dash that gives movespeed.

Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
July 07 2014 23:24 GMT
#784
His burst is weak compared to what others offer tbh, and risky at that (Q effective range). And his passive doesn't do much if he's behind because he can trigger it in advance, he needs the fight to last (which ironically is contrary to his front-loaded burst-oriented kit and playstyle) or to be poked before hand and keep it going. If he's behind, poke will hurt, and/or he'll die fast once the fight breaks out anyway.
The "blind" is mostly for jukes and stuff, in a direct confrontation it actually gives vision slightly larger than the standard range (~= 575) so you can most of the time know who's hitting you and retaliate if you're ranged. It's very strong to cover for roams/counterganks by negating stuff like ward vision during a trade before the enemy can walk off though, and can be helpful to disengage in crossroads like in the jungle.

His dash is short range (heck, he can't jump thick walls and needs to be very close to the edge of others not to mess up) and is still limited by his own autoattack range, which doesn't help (the steroid actually isn't that bad; and it should be maxed faster now that you can't rush BT, stack it and take a second point in W at 8 to one-shot caster minions with WQ).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-07 23:36:51
July 07 2014 23:36 GMT
#785
Lucian's burst is fast and low risk. Which scares me in soloqueue because I might have as much burst but take longer to apply it or have to commit myself for it. It makes it hard for other ADC to duel him.

I think he's not the best at teamfighting though and a lot of people don't use his passive fully.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
July 07 2014 23:56 GMT
#786
They're just slowly positioning corki for his annual rise to massive fotm for worlds
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
July 08 2014 00:22 GMT
#787
wtf, I always thought that Olaf'E scale with health, why does it scale with AD?
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
July 08 2014 00:28 GMT
#788
On July 08 2014 06:04 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2014 05:58 IMoperator wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:53 IMoperator wrote:
ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS GIVE HIS PASSIVE A COOLDOWN LOL

I didn't even think he was that op'd tbh. Twitch/Jinx/Kog/Trist were all popping up in these recent patches.

he's not, that's the stupid thing, ever since they changed BT he's like lower tier than kog/trist and on the same tier as twitch/cait/jinx

The one thing I did like about Lucian was that it was an ADC that non ADC players could play, and not be useless.


Caitlyn already exists though.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
July 08 2014 00:30 GMT
#789
Just saw the Lucian PBE nerf, holy moley, Riot pls. It's like they forget how drastic a range nerf is every time they do one >_>
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
July 08 2014 00:30 GMT
#790
Because the changes aimed at rewarding Olaf for building offensive items instead of going full tank.
'cept with his kit and role it's really hard for Olaf to go an offensive item because he'll then need to farm a 2nd complete one (at least) before he starts contributing to teamfights. Remove the mobility from Shyvana's ult and ask yourself if she would still be able to start BotRK, to sum it up.

And people won't let you farm 2 complete items before they start doing shit around the map. And Olaf peaks during the midgame, 'cept unlike Irelia he can't assassinate people.
After the changes, full tank Olaf was weaker than pre-change full tank Olaf, and 1+ damage item Olaf stronger than pre-change 1+ damage item Olaf. The issue is that you can't really build damage on him and hit comfortable timings/windows anyway...
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 08 2014 00:30 GMT
#791
On July 08 2014 09:28 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2014 06:04 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:58 IMoperator wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:53 IMoperator wrote:
ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS GIVE HIS PASSIVE A COOLDOWN LOL

I didn't even think he was that op'd tbh. Twitch/Jinx/Kog/Trist were all popping up in these recent patches.

he's not, that's the stupid thing, ever since they changed BT he's like lower tier than kog/trist and on the same tier as twitch/cait/jinx

The one thing I did like about Lucian was that it was an ADC that non ADC players could play, and not be useless.


Caitlyn already exists though.

Caitlyn is godawful if you don't main ad wtf.This myth is retarded.If you dont get fed in lane as cait you are useless compared to enemy ad until 3+ items.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
July 08 2014 00:39 GMT
#792
She's easy to play, you should rarely lose lane and people tend to really underestimate Caitlyn's damage. With new IE rush, she's very strong with just IE + PD.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 08 2014 00:43 GMT
#793
If you compare her timing to the popular adc champs her damage potential is very weak.She is only better than some others if enemy has no tanks but otherwise she is really bad.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-08 00:51:23
July 08 2014 00:50 GMT
#794
Cait has insane tower pushing though, that's pretty useful right now

Though tanky junglers are going to make her life hard, SotAG means every jungler is now a tank so pewpewpew is pretty useless.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
July 08 2014 00:54 GMT
#795
On July 08 2014 09:43 nafta wrote:
If you compare her timing to the popular adc champs her damage potential is very weak.She is only better than some others if enemy has no tanks but otherwise she is really bad.

Caitlyn is very safe and easy to play. Idk wtf you are talking about, she is the only AD I can play without feeding hilariously since I don't play AD. Many, many other players feel the same way
Platinum Support GOD
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-08 00:58:22
July 08 2014 00:58 GMT
#796
Cait is much less of a caster compared to most other AD's is all, her damage is somewhat less from ~lvl 2 until she hits 3 items, but you can't underestimate the value and safety of increased range.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
July 08 2014 01:00 GMT
#797
On July 08 2014 09:30 nafta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2014 09:28 GolemMadness wrote:
On July 08 2014 06:04 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:58 IMoperator wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 08 2014 05:53 IMoperator wrote:
ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS GIVE HIS PASSIVE A COOLDOWN LOL

I didn't even think he was that op'd tbh. Twitch/Jinx/Kog/Trist were all popping up in these recent patches.

he's not, that's the stupid thing, ever since they changed BT he's like lower tier than kog/trist and on the same tier as twitch/cait/jinx

The one thing I did like about Lucian was that it was an ADC that non ADC players could play, and not be useless.


Caitlyn already exists though.

Caitlyn is godawful if you don't main ad wtf.This myth is retarded.If you dont get fed in lane as cait you are useless compared to enemy ad until 3+ items.


I agree. Cait also requires a good rhythm and knowledge of lane mecahnics in order to harass and zone well in lane, mechanics which are very ranged AD specialized.

Trist is the AD for people who don't know how to AD. You can't do well in lane anyway, so don't try. You auto shove lanes by reading a guide, all you have to do is right click from 700 units away
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-08 01:04:35
July 08 2014 01:04 GMT
#798
On July 08 2014 09:30 Alaric wrote:
Because the changes aimed at rewarding Olaf for building offensive items instead of going full tank.
'cept with his kit and role it's really hard for Olaf to go an offensive item because he'll then need to farm a 2nd complete one (at least) before he starts contributing to teamfights. Remove the mobility from Shyvana's ult and ask yourself if she would still be able to start BotRK, to sum it up.

And people won't let you farm 2 complete items before they start doing shit around the map. And Olaf peaks during the midgame, 'cept unlike Irelia he can't assassinate people.
After the changes, full tank Olaf was weaker than pre-change full tank Olaf, and 1+ damage item Olaf stronger than pre-change 1+ damage item Olaf. The issue is that you can't really build damage on him and hit comfortable timings/windows anyway...


Only if by pre-change you mean post-nerf, which its fairly hard to be weaker than...
Freeeeeeedom
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
July 08 2014 01:16 GMT
#799
My experience with people who don't play ADC trying to play Tristana is that they miss a bunch of CS because of E passive and at the end of the game I've done more damage as support. I don't know what these specialised ADC mechanics are that you need with Caitlyn. You out range them. You auto them when they try to CS. It's not complicated.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
July 08 2014 01:41 GMT
#800
On July 08 2014 10:16 GolemMadness wrote:
My experience with people who don't play ADC trying to play Tristana is that they miss a bunch of CS because of E passive and at the end of the game I've done more damage as support. I don't know what these specialised ADC mechanics are that you need with Caitlyn. You out range them. You auto them when they try to CS. It's not complicated.


imo abusing range is a lot more difficult than using skills, and if you don't abuse your range Cait is p bad.
Carrilord has arrived.
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