• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:21
CET 17:21
KST 01:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation6Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time? SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET [ASL20] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1720 users

[Patch 4.8] RIP Pantheon General Discussion - Page 78

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 76 77 78 79 80 92 Next
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
June 02 2014 03:06 GMT
#1541
On June 02 2014 11:18 kongoline wrote:
so xerath has 1.7% pickrate now, guess rework which was supposed to make him more popular failed lol

He's no longer the magic damage carry he once was, now he's just long range generimage.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
June 02 2014 03:57 GMT
#1542
Yea...the Xerath rework was a complete and utter failure. It didn't help his pickrate. If anything it probably hurt it since the people who actually liked and played Xerath lost their champion. His winrate didn't really change either.
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-02 04:07:07
June 02 2014 04:04 GMT
#1543
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.

EDIT: Olaf, Jax (people think new Jax scales hard, lololol), Corki, Phage/Triforce, Flat/%Pen, AD/Crit/ASp scaling/cost.

I could go on about the horrid changes they've made to this game.
Writer@WriterYamato
justiceknight
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Singapore5741 Posts
June 02 2014 04:08 GMT
#1544
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


agreed, rito destroyed more heroes than actually solved their problems. I rather they release more heroes like in s2 than REDUCING the amount of playable heroes.

on the other hand am i safe to say LMQ is overrated by losing 2 games now?
InfSunday
Profile Joined March 2013
United States735 Posts
June 02 2014 04:11 GMT
#1545
On June 02 2014 13:08 justiceknight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


on the other hand am i safe to say LMQ is overrated by losing 2 games now?


It depends. I thought the general consensus was that they're good but predictably snowbally and therefore not god-tier - which is what we've seen with the two losses. But I've seen some people say they're easily #1 team NA - so you'd be correct in that instance.
Call me Sunday
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 02 2014 04:12 GMT
#1546
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


I donno.

According to this list of champion reworks:


Janna Visual Upgrade 2011-07-25
Kayle Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2011-07-25
Tryndamere Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2011-07-25
Gangplank Visual Upgrade 2011-11-25
Ashe Visual Upgrade 2012-05-23
Katarina Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2012-08-09
Soraka Visual Upgrade 2012-09-19
Twisted Fate Visual Upgrade 2012-10-03
Nidalee Visual Upgrade 2012-11-14
Annie Visual Upgrade 2013-01-16
Karma Full Relaunch 2013-03-14
Sejuani Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-04-02
Trundle Full Relaunch 2013-04-02
Master Yi Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-07-30
Garen Visual Upgrade 2013-10-01
Rammus Texture Upgrade 2013-10-29
Sivir Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-10-29
Nasus Visual Upgrade 2013-11-21
Anivia Texture Upgrade 2013-12-13
Xerath Kit Rework 2014-02-11
Skarner Kit Rework 2014-02-11
Heimerdinger Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2014-03-18
Kassadin Kit Rework 2014-03-18
Gragas Kit Rework 2014-04-03
Rengar Kit Rework 2014-04-03
Twitch Visual Upgrade 2014-04-22


I can't comment on Tryndamere or Kayle because that's too early for me. For the rest, I think:

Katarina: she is better after rework, although eventually she kind of turned to what she was before, especially after her last R changes. In general, I think rework made her immediately OP, but she did not become fundamentally better
Karma: rework made her playable. But I have to say she was so crappy before that even a monkey could make her better.
Sejuani: rework made her OP but I don't think she became fundamentally better (especially after the subsequent nerfs)
Yi: he is definitely better after the rework.
Sivir: she is definitely better after the rework.
Xerath: rework made him weaker
Skarner: rework made him weaker (?)
Heimer: rework made him OP, then nerfed into hell
Kassadin: reworked, still always banned.
Gragas: can't comment
Rengar: he is OP now due to his Q critting bug, not his rework
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 02 2014 04:14 GMT
#1547
None of the things I mentioned are even on there.

A rework doesn't necessarily mean a change to every skill.
Writer@WriterYamato
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
June 02 2014 04:17 GMT
#1548
Not sure about the Skarner rework making him weaker, hard to tell. The increased dmg output from Atk Spe being provided from Q is not an insignificant boost and the shorter cd on W helped him bunch too. I guess it depends on how you value a significantly faster clear and DPS to the permaslow utility but I don't think it's necessarily clear-cut
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
June 02 2014 04:18 GMT
#1549
On June 02 2014 13:11 InfSunday wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:08 justiceknight wrote:
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


on the other hand am i safe to say LMQ is overrated by losing 2 games now?


It depends. I thought the general consensus was that they're good but predictably snowbally and therefore not god-tier - which is what we've seen with the two losses. But I've seen some people say they're easily #1 team NA - so you'd be correct in that instance.

Did people really expect a 2nd/3rd tier Chinese team to do better than they are?

I mean, given the relative performance of NA and China in the past, I don't think it was ever realistic to expect outrageous things from them.
Moderator
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
June 02 2014 04:19 GMT
#1550
On June 02 2014 10:27 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 07:34 Sufficiency wrote:
TLDR: I think this game is not pay-to-win, but if you pay more to unlock game contents, you will have a far easier time winning and you can reach your goal far faster.


Perhaps, but I think I can hit plat 5 with just 1 runepage and 14 champions, it just comes down to having a roster of champions who work in the current meta.


I'm willing to bet that NO ONE can do that.
wat
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
June 02 2014 04:22 GMT
#1551
disagree with kat and sivir, the old kat was fun to play with the choices on killer instincts and the multiple ways you could level her skills. you could also go full ap/ad/tank builds. Now you always go AP and there is no meaningful choices, just skill spamming. how anyone can think the kat rework was good is mind boggling.

Sivir is more personal preference, I think her ricochet feels extremely clunky to use now and her E mechanics are worse then before imo. also taking away attack speed from her ult was lame because you used to be able to build teams around that, now its just a generic talisman thing.
I come in for the scraps
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 02 2014 04:23 GMT
#1552
The thing about LMQ is what their goal is.


Do they just want to live in the US and play the game? If so, they are more than good enough to secure top 5 and prevent relegation. They don't need to improve and just play how they are currently play - and they'll be fine for years while keeping a 3-5th spot on NA.

Do they want to play for top WC finishes? If so, they will go 1st in NA and have a shot at world's (well, assuming they get rid of NoName...).

I think they are just going to try to stay here. They are not going to shoot for WC.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
June 02 2014 04:23 GMT
#1553
On June 02 2014 13:19 EquilasH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 10:27 Zdrastochye wrote:
On June 02 2014 07:34 Sufficiency wrote:
TLDR: I think this game is not pay-to-win, but if you pay more to unlock game contents, you will have a far easier time winning and you can reach your goal far faster.


Perhaps, but I think I can hit plat 5 with just 1 runepage and 14 champions, it just comes down to having a roster of champions who work in the current meta.


I'm willing to bet that NO ONE can do that.


theres people in diamond 1 and challenger that only have one champion played in all their games so 14 would actually be quite a lot. Karthus seems to be a pretty common one trick pony champion in high elo.
I come in for the scraps
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
June 02 2014 04:24 GMT
#1554
On June 02 2014 13:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:19 EquilasH wrote:
On June 02 2014 10:27 Zdrastochye wrote:
On June 02 2014 07:34 Sufficiency wrote:
TLDR: I think this game is not pay-to-win, but if you pay more to unlock game contents, you will have a far easier time winning and you can reach your goal far faster.


Perhaps, but I think I can hit plat 5 with just 1 runepage and 14 champions, it just comes down to having a roster of champions who work in the current meta.


I'm willing to bet that NO ONE can do that.


theres people in diamond 1 and challenger that only have one champion played in all their games so 14 would actually be quite a lot. Karthus seems to be a pretty common one trick pony champion in high elo.


You realize you'd need 16 champions to play ranked, right ?
wat
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
June 02 2014 04:24 GMT
#1555
On June 02 2014 13:22 VayneAuthority wrote:
disagree with kat and sivir, the old kat was fun to play with the choices on killer instincts and the multiple ways you could level her skills. you could also go full ap/ad/tank builds. Now you always go AP and there is no meaningful choices, just skill spamming. how anyone can think the kat rework was good is mind boggling.

Sivir is more personal preference, I think her ricochet feels extremely clunky to use now and her E mechanics are worse then before imo. also taking away attack speed from her ult was lame because you used to be able to build teams around that, now its just a generic talisman thing.

Old kat way better than new kat.
liftlift > tsm
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
June 02 2014 04:35 GMT
#1556
kat is 50x worse after the rework
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
June 02 2014 04:38 GMT
#1557
On June 02 2014 13:12 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


I donno.

According to this list of champion reworks:


Janna Visual Upgrade 2011-07-25
Kayle Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2011-07-25
Tryndamere Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2011-07-25
Gangplank Visual Upgrade 2011-11-25
Ashe Visual Upgrade 2012-05-23
Katarina Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2012-08-09
Soraka Visual Upgrade 2012-09-19
Twisted Fate Visual Upgrade 2012-10-03
Nidalee Visual Upgrade 2012-11-14
Annie Visual Upgrade 2013-01-16
Karma Full Relaunch 2013-03-14
Sejuani Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-04-02
Trundle Full Relaunch 2013-04-02
Master Yi Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-07-30
Garen Visual Upgrade 2013-10-01
Rammus Texture Upgrade 2013-10-29
Sivir Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2013-10-29
Nasus Visual Upgrade 2013-11-21
Anivia Texture Upgrade 2013-12-13
Xerath Kit Rework 2014-02-11
Skarner Kit Rework 2014-02-11
Heimerdinger Visual Upgrade and Kit Rework 2014-03-18
Kassadin Kit Rework 2014-03-18
Gragas Kit Rework 2014-04-03
Rengar Kit Rework 2014-04-03
Twitch Visual Upgrade 2014-04-22


I can't comment on Tryndamere or Kayle because that's too early for me. For the rest, I think:

Katarina: she is better after rework, although eventually she kind of turned to what she was before, especially after her last R changes. In general, I think rework made her immediately OP, but she did not become fundamentally better
Karma: rework made her playable. But I have to say she was so crappy before that even a monkey could make her better.
Sejuani: rework made her OP but I don't think she became fundamentally better (especially after the subsequent nerfs)
Yi: he is definitely better after the rework.
Sivir: she is definitely better after the rework.
Xerath: rework made him weaker
Skarner: rework made him weaker (?)
Heimer: rework made him OP, then nerfed into hell
Kassadin: reworked, still always banned.
Gragas: can't comment
Rengar: he is OP now due to his Q critting bug, not his rework

Tryndameres rework is literally them removing health costs and swapping his crit to his passive and stuff. he's basically the same champion tbh.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 02 2014 04:47 GMT
#1558
On June 02 2014 13:19 EquilasH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 10:27 Zdrastochye wrote:
On June 02 2014 07:34 Sufficiency wrote:
TLDR: I think this game is not pay-to-win, but if you pay more to unlock game contents, you will have a far easier time winning and you can reach your goal far faster.


Perhaps, but I think I can hit plat 5 with just 1 runepage and 14 champions, it just comes down to having a roster of champions who work in the current meta.


I'm willing to bet that NO ONE can do that.


My concern is mostly that I can't play the same champion in every game.

For example, I feel my Katarina is good enough to carry every game in low plat (ok well, every game that does not have LB on the other side). But I don't get to play mid every game. Often I get stuck on a role I don't know how to play, and with a very limited pool to choose from on my smurf I can't even counterpick, so I just straight up lose.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
KissBlade
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States5718 Posts
June 02 2014 04:52 GMT
#1559
On June 02 2014 13:18 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:11 InfSunday wrote:
On June 02 2014 13:08 justiceknight wrote:
On June 02 2014 13:04 yamato77 wrote:
A lot of reworks completely suck, to be honest.


on the other hand am i safe to say LMQ is overrated by losing 2 games now?


It depends. I thought the general consensus was that they're good but predictably snowbally and therefore not god-tier - which is what we've seen with the two losses. But I've seen some people say they're easily #1 team NA - so you'd be correct in that instance.

Did people really expect a 2nd/3rd tier Chinese team to do better than they are?

I mean, given the relative performance of NA and China in the past, I don't think it was ever realistic to expect outrageous things from them.


Not sure if you agree but what do you think of their performance versus when they first came to the US? To be honest, I thought they got a lot better. When they first popped up, I wasn't too impressed by them. Vasili looked like Chinese ADC so they had that going for their team & Ackerman was Godlike. However, since then, I thought NoName, XWX, Mor really grew into their own. Oddly enough, I thought they really grew within the NA scene and I don't think they would've yielded the same results had they stayed in CN.
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
June 02 2014 05:06 GMT
#1560
On June 02 2014 13:47 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2014 13:19 EquilasH wrote:
On June 02 2014 10:27 Zdrastochye wrote:
On June 02 2014 07:34 Sufficiency wrote:
TLDR: I think this game is not pay-to-win, but if you pay more to unlock game contents, you will have a far easier time winning and you can reach your goal far faster.


Perhaps, but I think I can hit plat 5 with just 1 runepage and 14 champions, it just comes down to having a roster of champions who work in the current meta.


I'm willing to bet that NO ONE can do that.


My concern is mostly that I can't play the same champion in every game.

For example, I feel my Katarina is good enough to carry every game in low plat (ok well, every game that does not have LB on the other side). But I don't get to play mid every game. Often I get stuck on a role I don't know how to play, and with a very limited pool to choose from on my smurf I can't even counterpick, so I just straight up lose.


I just made a joke because he said 14 champions instead of 16 champions, but it looks like people missed it.
wat
Prev 1 76 77 78 79 80 92 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
11:30
Mid Season Playoffs
Krystianer vs PercivalLIVE!
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 224
Rex 92
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2974
Rain 2159
Hyuk 1607
Bisu 1464
Horang2 853
Shuttle 266
Rush 146
Backho 78
Barracks 51
Rock 39
[ Show more ]
hero 34
Aegong 24
sSak 22
zelot 21
Killer 17
Dota 2
Gorgc3748
qojqva2070
Dendi1095
BananaSlamJamma139
XcaliburYe95
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King96
Other Games
DeMusliM464
hiko462
ceh9378
Sick329
Hui .279
Fuzer 233
QueenE50
Trikslyr37
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• 3DClanTV 42
• poizon28 25
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 33
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2750
• WagamamaTV488
League of Legends
• Nemesis4411
• TFBlade999
Other Games
• Shiphtur45
Upcoming Events
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6h 40m
The PondCast
17h 40m
RSL Revival
17h 40m
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
19h 40m
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Cure
Reynor vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
19h 40m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 17h
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
1d 19h
herO vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
IPSL
3 days
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
3 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
BSL 21
4 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
4 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.