EPT[Patch 4.8] RIP Pantheon General Discussion - Page 39
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On May 27 2014 23:49 krndandaman wrote: i think the only person defending rengar is wei2coolman and 1 other I can't remember. everyone else agrees rengar needs to be changed. Yeah sorry, it's more of a rant than directed at anyone here in particular. It reminds me a lot of pre-nerf Draven (which is a decent comparison since he wasn't a perma pick/ban back then, either). Even post-nerf Draven's Q still hits like a freaking truck. There will be people bitching about and defending everything in the game, I guess, no matter how ridiculous they may be. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On May 27 2014 23:49 krndandaman wrote: i think the only person defending rengar is wei2coolman and 1 other I can't remember. everyone else agrees rengar needs to be changed. It'd help to re-read posts, as I've stated in each of my "Renger defenses" that he should be changed. The "zero counterplay" argument was just bullshit and remains to be. It's just people talking out of their ass in hyperboles, which make any argument seem one-sided. Rengar does need to be toned down though, I agree. Then he'll no longer be played, ce la vie. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Sure, Rengar has been like this for a while now, but wasn't popularized until recently. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On May 27 2014 23:33 justiceknight wrote: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10418198_851637241530285_4613015355904351194_n.jpg) good job rito, rengar 1 shotted me even if i have so much sustain. Oh man, SotD Rengar is awesome. I gotta try it more. I think I stopped cuz I felt so weak after using it, but then again, if it helps me gib people. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On May 28 2014 00:17 Sandster wrote: Unfortunately, the amount a champ gets played is a big factor. Poppy actually has a fairly ridiculous kit, and I believe Riot has admitted that the moment Poppy gets a lot of play they're going to gut her. As it stands, if you see a Poppy every once in a blue moon and she gets fed and destroys you while ignoring the rest of your team, you'll think "man, this sucks, glad no one plays Poppy." If it's happening game after game..that's when it's a problem. Sure, Rengar has been like this for a while now, but wasn't popularized until recently. Poppy was my 2nd most played champ with 76% winrate in s2 at 2300 Elo, but the last couple of times I've tried her I've gotten wrecked, simply because the current state of top lane doesn't allow you to safely farm up your Triforce. And on top of that, the Gunblade nerf from way back hit her really hard as well. If you absolutely have to pick her you'd need to see their jungle and top pick first, and not many lanes would be good for her even then. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On May 28 2014 00:20 EquilasH wrote: Poppy was my 2nd most played champ with 76% winrate in s2 at 2300 Elo, but the last couple of times I've tried her I've gotten wrecked, simply because the current state of top lane doesn't allow you to safely farm up your Triforce. And on top of that, the Gunblade nerf from way back hit her really hard as well. If you absolutely have to pick her you'd need to see their jungle and top pick first, and not many lanes would be good for her even then. Oh I know. I'm just giving an example of a horrible kit. If you don't change her abilities but only the numbers/ratios, she's either close to unplayable (b/c she can't survive laning) or blatantly overpowered. These type of champions are not good for the game, and are better off completely gutted then bordering on OP. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 28 2014 00:20 EquilasH wrote: Poppy was my 2nd most played champ with 76% winrate in s2 at 2300 Elo, but the last couple of times I've tried her I've gotten wrecked, simply because the current state of top lane doesn't allow you to safely farm up your Triforce. And on top of that, the Gunblade nerf from way back hit her really hard as well. If you absolutely have to pick her you'd need to see their jungle and top pick first, and not many lanes would be good for her even then. No philo stacking, no Poppy  | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Badboyrune
Sweden2247 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 28 2014 00:28 krndandaman wrote: However you say you agree that rengar needs to be toned down. Isn't that what everyone is saying? That's what I'm saying. But you also say that if he is toned down, he'll no longer be played. Isn't that bad design? He is either a) stupid to play against or b) not fun to play cause he sucks From what I understand, Zdrastochye takes issue with the "no counterplay" argument being used because it's pretty much a bullshit argument that's essentially throwing meaningless Riot buzzwords around. For snowbally champ kits, their successful endgame is fundamentally non-interactive because thats how overly snowbally champs work--their success case is so strong as to be non-interactive--that doesn't mean that Rengar's kit is inherently non-interactive by design though. Basically he's saying people are drawing the right conclusions using the wrong arguments. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
(Also there'd be no counterplay in lane aside from going jungling, grabbing whatever cs you can with spells outranging her, including dying to Flash-Q when it's up and having a larger window to last hit otherwise.) On paper if you have instant cc to stop Rengar and kill him there's counterplay, if you 5-man with a fast-fingers Soraka on your team there's counterplay, but it's still ridiculously biased in his favour, even in a 5v5 (because of his ability to kill people in less than a second, leaving many unable to even react). | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
My best guess is that the idea of counterplay means that you should always have an out based on good play no matter the initial state in question but that's bullshit because that's never going to be true. There's always going to be a game state that's so fucked that you can't reasonably design the game around having "counterplay" there. On May 28 2014 01:01 Alaric wrote: Aiblity to react to something. Say Annie's Q dealt 1 million damage, she'd be OP and you wouldn't feel like playing against her, there'd still be counterplay in general from the possibility of staying out of her range, things like splitpushing, using Kayle ult to get in cc range of her then burst her, etc. but it wouldn't be enough to make her balanced or fun to play against. (Also there'd be no counterplay in lane aside from going jungling, grabbing whatever cs you can with spells outranging her, including dying to Flash-Q when it's up and having a larger window to last hit otherwise.) On paper if you have instant cc to stop Rengar and kill him there's counterplay, if you 5-man with a fast-fingers Soraka on your team there's counterplay, but it's still ridiculously biased in his favour, even in a 5v5 (because of his ability to kill people in less than a second, leaving many unable to even react). The problem is that "counterplay" only exists in the context of a given set of initial conditions. A Rengar with 5 Bloodthirsters at 20 minutes obviously one-shots everyone, but that's pretty much not a realistic gameplay scenario. Saying a champion does or doesn't have counterplay without defining a specific set of circumstances under which you're evaluating doesn't actually say anything. | ||
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