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On May 28 2014 01:14 TheYango wrote:
The idea of "no counterplay" makes more sense when discussing combo-based play in a card game or a fighting game where it's possible for a non-interactive deck/character to basically dictate the game 1v0 from start to finish--there there's a legitimate lack of interactivity in the gameplay.
When people use the term here, they're basically only ever using it to evaluate individual scenarios without ever referencing the macro game leading up to it. It's basically saying that DT rushing has no counterplay because if you have zero detection when it hits there's nothing to bail you out--completely ignoring the entire game played up to that point where you had options to find out about or deal with the rush otherwise.
But the macro game leading up to it is apparently "don't be 50 cs a level,3 kills and over twice the gold of rengar or he will 100-0 you with no interaction".
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The problem is only ways of countering Rengar are true vision and instant CC/ damage on him or defense on your AD. True vision is limited and expensive, and very few champs bring the saving potential in terms of CC and so forth. It's like saying yes David could kill Goliath (and he did), but 9/10 in that situation Goliath steps on David. No one gives a crap about the other Davids Goliath stepped on because it was expected.
If you're doing a DT rush you need to invest significant resources and cut defense to get the shrine up, and your opponent has both a timing window to attack, scout you in some way and otherwise anticipate your strategy. Rengar has no comparable downside because he just builds what he usually does, then you have to pray for a hold. If anything, Rengar is more like the bunker wall in before the neutral supply depots were put in, or the 4gate or roaches at the beginning of SC2.
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its all fun and games until goliath upgrades his charon boosters
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 28 2014 02:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
The problem is only ways of countering Rengar are true vision and instant CC/ damage on him or defense on your AD. True vision is limited and expensive, and very few champs bring the saving potential in terms of CC and so forth. It's like saying yes David could kill Goliath (and he did), but 9/10 in that situation Goliath steps on David. No one gives a crap about the other Davids Goliath stepped on because it was expected.
I don't see how this makes any sense as an analogy
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david had superior muta micro
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I don't even know what we're talking about anymore I thought I was in OT for a second
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Before David killed Goliath, Goliath killed many Davids.
Galio needs a rework. He has such nice skins and such an outdated kit. Plus he fits the requirements of things that Riot wishes to change in that he gets free stats from his passive (RIP Jax, Raka, Akali, etc) so he should be next in line. 
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 28 2014 02:50 Zdrastochye wrote:Before David killed Goliath, Goliath killed many Davids. Galio needs a rework. He has such nice skins and such an outdated kit. Plus he fits the requirements of things that Riot wishes to change in that he gets free stats from his passive (RIP Jax, Raka, Akali, etc) so he should be next in line.
And what does that have in common with pink ward+CC being required against Rengar
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Wait, we talking about biblical David? or David Kim? :D
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you will die many times against rengar before you can obtain your rightful leadership over Israel
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On May 28 2014 02:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, we talking about biblical David? or David Kim? :D
Clearly biblical. Nobody kills David Kim.
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Galio has equally zero counterplay because you can't control your character while taunted and if you get taunted at 10% hp you just die without any ability to outplay him. He is broken in champion design and must be completely remade.
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On May 28 2014 02:59 Zdrastochye wrote:
Galio has equally zero counterplay because you can't control your character while taunted and if you get taunted at 10% hp you just die without any ability to outplay him. He is broken in champion design and must be completely remade.
He does need a remake. just not for those reasons. :D
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On May 28 2014 02:59 Zdrastochye wrote:
Galio has equally zero counterplay because you can't control your character while taunted and if you get taunted at 10% hp you just die without any ability to outplay him. He is broken in champion design and must be completely remade.
bear stance udyr disagrees woth u
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 28 2014 03:05 johnybravo22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:59 Zdrastochye wrote:
Galio has equally zero counterplay because you can't control your character while taunted and if you get taunted at 10% hp you just die without any ability to outplay him. He is broken in champion design and must be completely remade. bear stance udyr disagrees woth u
Braum is even worse.
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On May 28 2014 02:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, we talking about biblical David? or David Kim? :D
David Kim did kill the goliath
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMlgsqA2oyKoBZle4KBnq-I70GbdOziMHI2uz7KmLOTfV_-Dy0nA) rip
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On May 28 2014 03:19 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, we talking about biblical David? or David Kim? :D David Kim did kill the goliath + Show Spoiler +rip
that's why I was wondering
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On May 28 2014 00:25 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 00:20 EquilasH wrote:On May 28 2014 00:17 Sandster wrote:
Unfortunately, the amount a champ gets played is a big factor. Poppy actually has a fairly ridiculous kit, and I believe Riot has admitted that the moment Poppy gets a lot of play they're going to gut her. As it stands, if you see a Poppy every once in a blue moon and she gets fed and destroys you while ignoring the rest of your team, you'll think "man, this sucks, glad no one plays Poppy." If it's happening game after game..that's when it's a problem.
Sure, Rengar has been like this for a while now, but wasn't popularized until recently. Poppy was my 2nd most played champ with 76% winrate in s2 at 2300 Elo, but the last couple of times I've tried her I've gotten wrecked, simply because the current state of top lane doesn't allow you to safely farm up your Triforce. And on top of that, the Gunblade nerf from way back hit her really hard as well. If you absolutely have to pick her you'd need to see their jungle and top pick first, and not many lanes would be good for her even then. No philo stacking, no Poppy 
Meh, Philo wasn't even that important for Poppy - as I got better with Poppy I actually prefered to run without Philo.
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On May 28 2014 03:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 03:19 ComaDose wrote:On May 28 2014 02:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, we talking about biblical David? or David Kim? :D David Kim did kill the goliath + Show Spoiler +rip that's why I was wondering
I'm glad people got that joke, but it was kind of a side thing.
Point is, the norm is that Rengar kills squishies, so everyone's like meh ok, Rengar cancer we expected that. But when a support manages to save a carry, then it's like PUT THIS ON YOUTUBE THIS RIGHT HERE IS SPECIAL.
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EPT
