EPT[Patch 4.8] RIP Pantheon General Discussion - Page 21
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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QuixoticO
Netherlands810 Posts
A good example that has been bothering me for a while now is the "new" Le Blanc build I see being used by certain pros. They go for Athene's directly into Voidstaff. What's the reason they skip Deathcap and if it's better to go for Voidstaff as second item why don't you see it being build on more champions as second item? | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On May 25 2014 19:14 QuixoticO wrote: I've been trying to understand item builds better for a while now and I can replicate effective ones when needed but I don't think I really understand the underlying reasons. Maybe someone can enlighten me because I have no clue when it comes to Pen. items. A good example that has been bothering me for a while now is the "new" Le Blanc build I see being used by certain pros. They go for Athene's directly into Voidstaff. What's the reason they skip Deathcap and if it's better to go for Voidstaff as second item why don't you see it being build on more champions as second item? It's an estimation based on AP ratios on skills vs the amount of MR the enemy team will have at specific points in the game where you'll be encountering them. Generally you want penetration by the time you anticipate key targets having resists for you. If you're an ADC, for example, you want LW around the same time that Renekton will be your main focus in a fight. If you're a caster, you want Void Staff when the people you'll be blowing up have resists for it. The closer to 0 you can get someone's resists, the more value you get from flat penetration. The higher amount of resists they have, the more value you get from % pen. I can't comment specifically on the LB case because I haven't seen a game, but I imagine they thought having the pen was more important than having the AP or that saving 1600 for a NLR was too expensive. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 25 2014 19:14 QuixoticO wrote: I've been trying to understand item builds better for a while now and I can replicate effective ones when needed but I don't think I really understand the underlying reasons. Maybe someone can enlighten me because I have no clue when it comes to Pen. items. A good example that has been bothering me for a while now is the "new" Le Blanc build I see being used by certain pros. They go for Athene's directly into Voidstaff. What's the reason they skip Deathcap and if it's better to go for Voidstaff as second item why don't you see it being build on more champions as second item? Generally I find these kind of questions can be thought out quite easily if you just note down the +'s and -'s of each choice and compare them, It's often a fun exercise (and a good learning habit) to do if you see someone do something you don't understand. 1. It's a lot cheaper then deathcap, if you go void you have a much earlier power spike which you can potentially abuse. Coming from base with a large rod, compared to coming from base with a void staff, and you can probably tell which of those two will be more useful if you're about to have a huge teamfight for dragon. 2. It amplifies all your damage, not just your ap ratios. Champions like elise or ryze who have lots of base/%/whatever damage on their skills, but relatively bad ap ratios, will gain a lot more damage from a void staff then a rabadons. 3. A lot of mid laners stack a fair bit of mr against lb, chalice is a default buy on a lot of laners, and that + runes alone is a fair amount of mr. Some then take it further with mercs/abyssal/whatnot, while common counters like orianna sometimes have mr steroids in their kit. The exact maths of where void staff beats rabas in pure burst damage, as a function of your base damage and their mr, is done here http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/diff-the-ender/23109-damage-analysis-rabadons-deathcap-vs-void-staff So why not always build it? If you grab void you're losing out on a few things. 1. WAVECLEAR, creeps don't give a shit about your %mpen, the mage with rabadons will oneshot waves MUCH more easily then the mage with void staff. And the different between being able to wipe in in one spell rotation, and having to spend an additional 10s manually finishing off a bunch of low caster minions, is pretty huge when it comes to roaming/shoving/being shoved in. 2. Utility spells. That nida heal, or that lulu shield, or that kayle heal/ms boost, or that soraka heal. All of these are unaffected by ap, so by goign void instead of rabas, you're sacrificing a surprisingly huge amount of your utility. The extra 50 ap (+25% of your current ap, which is generally at least another 50 by this point) is a lot to lose. 3. If they're resolutely refusing to build mr, it's probably not worth it. So when do we build it on lb? well if they're stacking mr, and can't shove, then it's probably a good buy. If they have no mr, but a lot of shoving power, (or if you want to be able to shove them in easily then roam) then maybe deathcap would be a better idea, to increase your total damage lane control, etc etc Same applies for other champions. You're nidalee? Do you really need damage, even on the tanks? Void. Are you snowballing/need to carry and have 2.4k on a back? Void. Are they stacking mr? Void. Is your team doing well and you just need to peel/do a little damage/keep adc alive? Rabas. Not going to be fighting for a while? take the time to farm rabas. Their whole team are squishies without mr? Rabas. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On a related note, It's utter shit that a void staff (and last whisper) are must buys. Should only be situational at best. That guy with 300 mr? Better get a void staff. Makes perfect sense, it's why the item exists. That guy with 60 mr? Better get void staff. Makes no sense. Something is way off there. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 25 2014 20:20 IMoperator wrote: speaking of item builds, when you're building a randuins, which part are you supposed to build first? Teamfights/standard laning/generally, giants belt. Only have 800 gold/you have a lot of sustain (botrk/you're ww or something) and your lane opponent is ad, and doesn't have the burst to oneshot you, then chain/wardens mail makes your sustain even more effective. But Generally I think the extra health from giants belt is just so good in lots of situations. Diving, all ins, teamfights, surviving ganks etc etc. Although if you're getting it as 3rd/4th item, and already have a fair bit of health from other items (like you have SV and another health item) and no armour items, then obv getting wardens mail first is better. | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Same can be applied to Top Lanes that rush Sunfire Cape. You normally go Giant's Belt first. But if you're laning against a Tryndamere and/or you don't have 1K gold on first back, that Chain Vest is actually a good alternative. killerdog also brings up a good point in trying to balance your resists and hp. If you have a SV or Banshee's already, Warden's Mail is ok first. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35166 Posts
On May 25 2014 20:20 IMoperator wrote: speaking of item builds, when you're building a randuins, which part are you supposed to build first? It all depends on what your armor/hp tiers are at. Iirc, if you're sub 1500 health, buying health is always better than buying resists. | ||
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On May 25 2014 20:20 IMoperator wrote: speaking of item builds, when you're building a randuins, which part are you supposed to build first? I would go Warden's Mail first only on champs that have built in HP in theirs kits like Nasus and Renekton since that'll get you more bang for your buck. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 25 2014 20:20 IMoperator wrote: speaking of item builds, when you're building a randuins, which part are you supposed to build first? Laning vs ad: warden's mail Laning vs ap: giant's belt Is it that hard to figure out? O_o On May 25 2014 21:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: In general, when getting large items, get the more expensive single component first. The only example I can think of that this doesn't apply to is Bloodthirster. GL rushing giant's belt against someone like renekton or riven, because it will set you 280g further your randuin's than chain vest (but you will fail lane). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
obviously in lane phase sponkz you buy whatever youneed but who the fuck is rushing randuins in lane | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
I think health is extremely valuable because it scales with resists (I guess the opposite is also true but I feel like health gives you a bigger buffer compared to straight resists), but I obviously don't do this against like Tryndamere... | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
garen regens off %hp so its all good though | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
If you have slightly over 1k gold, get the belt. If you have less, get the chain vest and some wards. The armor part of Randuins has better denominations to fill later. If you have a chain vest and 300 gold, upgrade to wardens If you have chain vest and 700 gold upgrade boots I've done mass health builds and found them rather weak during laning for example where I just get poked down and my life pool diminishes to nothing. Which is weird since for the 1 digit levels, stacking health vs someone who only does physical damage (almost none exist) is still better than stacking armor in terms of effective hp. | ||
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