On May 16 2014 14:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: I keep seeing people talk about it but I just don't get it -- what's the point of jungle Ezreal? How does it work any different than, say, jungle Twitch? How is it possible to jungle someone with zero CC?
with red buff, ez has formidable ganks. especially with his instant gap closer. he also has significant burst even in the earlier levels. his skirmishing is amazing. and we all know how important skirmishing is in this meta. he can kite in and out of fights while chasing down low health targets. if you die for their adc, it's totally fine since you're not the main damage dealer on your team as jungler.
unlike twitch, ezreal is self-sufficient. I don't need peel, and I don't die instantly to a diver. he also scales very well into the lategame where he basically becomes a second blue ez adc.
I think he excels in a comp with a strong toplaner and good waveclear/disengage. pretty much a poke comp lol. I had a perfect comp in my jungle ez debut so I instantly picked him (top lee, jungle ez, mid ziggs, adc lucian, sup nami). we had lee split top with TP while we sieged/defended with insane poke/waveclear/disengage if things ever got bad.
The reason why I don't think jungle Ezreal and jungle Twitch should work is that any competent jungler should be there every single time the enemy red is up and contest. Ping the hell out of your mid lane so he knows in advance. I don't see how either Ez or Twitch can fight at level 2-7 against any enemy jungler that has a gap closer and/or CC.
tbh, jungle Ez/Twitch can only work when they have red buff. Without out, their gank potential diminishes greatly.
Its actually pretty hard to contest jungle Ez's red, because he won't fight you straight up, he just keeps the buff warded properly and will just poke you from out of range while his mid comes to back him up and probably instagib you since you're chunked at that point. You can't take the buff because he'll wreck you while you do it, and its pretty much impossible to sneak up on him if he uses a ward or two because of his super brush checking abilities (Q W and E all brush check). You'd have to have such buff control that you can just bring like 3 people or a fed mid to zone him and take the buff or kill ez's midlane. Mystic shot hits pretty damn hard at early level when you have nothing to hide behind.
On May 16 2014 16:54 NeoIllusions wrote: So apparently Panth got a "bug fix" today in regards to Grand Skyfall, the same day Dragonslayer Panth comes out. It is essentially a nerf that was undocumented. While the QQ is amusing to read, I have to believe that Riot will allow skin buyers to refund the skin otherwise I can see this consumer backlash worsen over the weekend.
Poor Smash, he continues to get crucified for champions he's tasked to balance/update.
Neo pls, I posted it 2 pages earlier.
As for contesting buffs, he said they had Ziggs, Lee, Lucian and Nami. That's a pretty good level 1, Lee is strong early and Ziggs can shove (bot lane depends on match-ups but there's worse), so I'd say as long as he uses the trinkets (30s availability helps) he can get his team to collapse faster and more efficiently in case of an invade and be pretty safe in that regard.
Obviously if your team is Vladimir, Kassadin, Vayne and Leona you can't exactly do that.
On May 16 2014 14:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: I keep seeing people talk about it but I just don't get it -- what's the point of jungle Ezreal? How does it work any different than, say, jungle Twitch? How is it possible to jungle someone with zero CC?
with red buff, ez has formidable ganks. especially with his instant gap closer. he also has significant burst even in the earlier levels. his skirmishing is amazing. and we all know how important skirmishing is in this meta. he can kite in and out of fights while chasing down low health targets. if you die for their adc, it's totally fine since you're not the main damage dealer on your team as jungler.
unlike twitch, ezreal is self-sufficient. I don't need peel, and I don't die instantly to a diver. he also scales very well into the lategame where he basically becomes a second blue ez adc.
I think he excels in a comp with a strong toplaner and good waveclear/disengage. pretty much a poke comp lol. I had a perfect comp in my jungle ez debut so I instantly picked him (top lee, jungle ez, mid ziggs, adc lucian, sup nami). we had lee split top with TP while we sieged/defended with insane poke/waveclear/disengage if things ever got bad.
The reason why I don't think jungle Ezreal and jungle Twitch should work is that any competent jungler should be there every single time the enemy red is up and contest. Ping the hell out of your mid lane so he knows in advance. I don't see how either Ez or Twitch can fight at level 2-7 against any enemy jungler that has a gap closer and/or CC.
tbh, jungle Ez/Twitch can only work when they have red buff. Without out, their gank potential diminishes greatly.
then again, most junglers have a hard time against any competent jungler playing a top jungle champion. I just think ez jungle is really underrated in soloq. I think its much better than twitch jungle yet twitch jungle is a thing and hardly anyone plays jungle ez. never seen it in soloq/normals other than myself.
2nd red will be hard if enemy chooses to contest but before then I usually gank mid and whether it fails or not I stay with my laner to shove it hard. usually we can force the mid laner low/back and then I can take my red safely. ez is so much better in 2v2 situations than 1v1 so as long as my mid is doing ok I should be fine. if not im kinda fucked and have to just farm till I get iceborn gauntlet and have presence again.
but overall, just ban kha/panth/leesin(?) and should be ok for the most part. I've only found kha/panth to be really difficult.
i've only played jungle ezreal a few times in normals, but i swear by jungle twitch level 2 stealth ganks mid are o fucking p, as well as just walking right into a coutnergank and pressing r
On May 16 2014 14:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: I keep seeing people talk about it but I just don't get it -- what's the point of jungle Ezreal? How does it work any different than, say, jungle Twitch? How is it possible to jungle someone with zero CC?
jungle ezreal is about pushing and siege (his W to give pushing power to his allies, his Q to poke, ult to clear waves far away during a push). you don't need to gank per se
the most famous example in professional play ("professional play" jokes inc) would be VES v MRN in the promotion tournament a couple splits ago:
obviously the meta has changed since season 3. but that's the gist of the ez pick
To be fair against mrn nk inc's counterpart was shen. He had very little risk of being counterjungled by a jungle shen compared to the kha'zixes and lee sins of today.
Yeah well that's like the Heimerdinger jungle comp that was used in a Korean tournament, they did it because the enemy team's draft allowed it (namely they had Shen as the offlaner so no pushing power at all early on), you've got to adapt to what you see. Which is its own beast in soloQ, agreed.
On May 16 2014 17:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Here's to hoping they revert it :[
Honestly I think Panth's in a really good spot right now. Teams have learned how to deal with him and the rise of other junglers make him not as scary as he used to be.
On May 16 2014 17:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Here's to hoping they revert it :[
Honestly I think Panth's in a really good spot right now. Teams have learned how to deal with him and the rise of other junglers make him not as scary as he used to be.
They said they were gonna watch it.
Does this imply they weren't watching him before and just did something for the hell of it? Don't really understand this. He's been in a good spot for some time now instead of overpowered so what is there to watch. How far they can change until they olaf him?
On May 16 2014 18:49 Numy wrote: Dam that panth nerf. Don't really get it he's picked now but doesn't drown out any junglers. Why nerf him?
From what I gathered from Smash's post, it's less of a "grr, he's too strong let's nerf him" and more "aw fuck, now a billion people are going to buy the new skin, let's make sure what happens in the game actually matches the animation."
Just happens to be that the result of that is a nerf.
Pantheon is really annoying if you're winning a side lane because you can't leverage your advantage by shoving them into tower without getting ganked. It's especially annoying for lane bully adcs like Cait or Lucian with a Nami or Lulu cause if you can't shove em under tower and harass them, the pick is sort of wasted. I don't think he was overpowered after they nerfed the first few times though, this seems a little overboard.
Mouz/Millennium + league has never been a good combo. Mouz deserve credit for creating a team with both flashy and failer and making it last more than a minute though
On May 16 2014 18:54 MattBarry wrote: Pantheon is really annoying if you're winning a side lane because you can't leverage your advantage by shoving them into tower without getting ganked. It's especially annoying for lane bully adcs like Cait or Lucian with a Nami or Lulu cause if you can't shove em under tower and harass them, the pick is sort of wasted. I don't think he was overpowered after they nerfed the first few times though, this seems a little overboard.
Well if you winning the lane you can often afford to go get some deep wards in their jungle.
On May 16 2014 06:04 Slayer91 wrote: except my argument is that 1: its not really a stupid build, it might be sub optimal but i could easily boost his account past your elo playing nocturne and going madreds spirit stone every game 2: focusing on the outer level obvious things like item builds and jungle paths is exactly the type of shallow analysis that keeps most people shitty and flaming because they feel like they understand the game but don't understand why they are playing with all these terrible players.
its the situationals that are most important and it comes from trial and error and analysis that leads you to make correct decisions and understanding how to snowball advantages.
its the same thing as the D players on Iccup extrapolating their ranks because they watch pro games so they think they understand how starcraft works.
You kept going on and on and on about "the right mindset", "understanding the REAL game" and so on. I have yet to see you ONCE explain to the apparently dumb masses how to learn the game according to you, what the right mindset is and how to get it. You keep repeating yourself over and over and holding this shit over peoples heads like its the one big truth that only you know - exactly like those scammy and shady self-improvement gurus or televangelists in late night commercials.
Put up or shut up.
The mindset I was referring to I have referred to constantly which is that you play every game to improve which means you just look for your own mistakes. You react to what your opponents do and what your allies do, you don't blame your allies for doing something you didn't expect just like you don't blame your opponents for doing something you don't expect. Think about every situation that goes badly, and figure out why it went badly and what you should have done in the situation. this is incredibly difficult when it comes to 5v5s because of so many factors, but the important thing is to not blame teammates for what they didn't do in the teamfight and instead figure out how you could have made your team win it. When you think like that you don't have to worry about getting countered in lane, because its not about how do you win the lane its about how do you make the best of every situation that happens. If your analysis if that he wins any early aggressive trades your new goal is to lose as little cs as possible before the wave starts pushing, that may mean you sacrifice cs early to make the wave push harder. When you're playing like that and comparing what worked in the same match up last time and stuff, you start to spot mistakes and opportunities that allow you to win lane, either he wastes his cds at a bad time or he plays in a way where you can set him up for a gank and snowball it from there.
There's no secret at all. If it were easy to get good everyone wouldn't be so terrible at everything. You have to analyze every situation for yourself and try to execute as well as possible, there's countless small things to learn and so many small decisions to make based on so many factors. That's a prime reason why most good players got good playing a very small set of champions. You need to reduce as many varied factors as possible to learn about all the small things.
I mean especially for things like build orders and champion viablility you can easily make wrong conclusions based on the game going wrong for reasons you didn't appreciate. Your first reaction is that he build/champ you are playing sucks but if you are playing the same builds and champs every game then you can start to analyze why it was so hard to win, almost always its that they had more gold than you and you didn't notice because sometimes kill counts can be even while gold isn't.
The reason I say so little specifics is because there's way too many things to learn and so many of them you internalize without realizing it that unless you come up with a specific situation for me to analyze I can't help at all.
And although in general playing to improve is less stressful emotionally its mentally a lot more taxing which is why most of the people who get good are school/college kids because once you have to worry about a job you probably don't have the time energy to keep up a constant level of focus.
In terms of not being bothered by people flaming. Actually you can play without caring about getting better. What causes you to get angry at people flaming in your ego. It's preconcieved notions about your skill and if someone else starts attackin that you get defensive. Ono of the biggest things that blocks the improvement mindset is the belief that you are already good, it undermines your ability to see mistakes because you're under the assumption that you didn't make any. Once you do drop your ego someone flaming you becomes either funny (if he's clearly wrong and you can joke about it) or semi constructive criticism (he could be technically wrong but some of what he said might be true.
For example if someone calls you a useless jungler because you didnt gank at such and such a time, even if your analysis is that you shoulnd't have ganked then, it may be true that you had a good time to gank earlier and you missed it, and its the build up of frustration of the laner when he saw lots of windows of opportunites that leads him to complain even though it would be a bad time to come. Even if someone is just calling you a fucking idiot it becomes funny if you just treat as basically a one sided rap battle. If you agree with everything they say or make jokes about what you did it becomes even funnier. I mostly play like that without really trying to improve at least recently, you just joke around and have fun. The issue is you need some type of goals to keep you motivated. Most people use their league points as a goal but that leads to frustration, but at least it keeps them playing.
also the whole "understanding the real game thing" isn't supposed to be pretentious, its just referencing to the multitude of things that good players are good at and are hard to quantify. You'll notice the better team almost always wins in 5v5's, it seems rarely decided by the picks and bans, and the better team makes their team comp look better just by abusing their own strengths well. Most people look at the very broad view things like lane matchups, item builds, and team comps, and they have broad view analysis of why things are bad or good and don't consider all the different interactions and factors.. This leads to the phenomenon of the "theorycrafter" who comes to faulty conclusions due to faulty assumptions in his logic, and bad players criticizing better players when they probably don't have any idea what they are talking about.
EPT
