EPT[Patch 4.7] Braum General Discussion - Page 49
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 15 2014 00:37 Fusilero wrote: There's nothing particularly special about the sub system, rito tries to enforce subs so we don't have another repeat of aAa but teams just don't give a fuck about their subs. It's not really feasible for team to actually try and get good subs though, with how high the skill difference between the top, and the bottom lcs teams is, any player who could sub in for tsm/c9/clg/whatever without drastically reducing the teams performance, would just be able to secure a starting spot on one of the bottom 3-4 teams in the same lcs. Why be a benchwarmer for a top 1-2-3 team, barely getting recognition/wages/not building your own fanbase at all, when you could just go become a starter for a 6/7/8th team. And the effort required to get a comparatively "subpar" player able to consistently mesh/play with the team, just in case he one day has to fill a spot, would probably have more of a negative affect on the teams total practice then a positive one from that 1 game they have a sub for, which they probably wouldn't even win anyway. It's a bit more pronounced in NA, but i think the same holds true for eu aswell. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:11 killerdog wrote: It's not really feasible for team to actually try and get good subs though, with how high the skill difference between the top, and the bottom lcs teams is, any player who could sub in for tsm/c9/clg/whatever without drastically reducing the teams performance, would just be able to secure a starting spot on one of the bottom 3-4 teams in the same lcs. Why be a benchwarmer for a top 1-2-3 team, barely getting recognition/wages/not building your own fanbase at all, when you could just go become a starter for a 6/7/8th team. And the effort required to get a comparatively "subpar" player able to consistently mesh/play with the team, just in case he one day has to fill a spot, would probably have more of a negative affect on the teams total practice then a positive one from that 1 game they have a sub for, which they probably wouldn't even win anyway. It's a bit more pronounced in NA, but i think the same holds true for eu aswell. rito could pay wages per player not per team up to a limit of X players. subs are basically required to change the mindset of the western world, otherwise theres no hope of catching korea. specializing for a certain champ or comp is reminiscent of the old BW training of being a sniper. and while its not what put the clear edge between korea and the west in that game, it was crucial in building the mentality towards training, improvement and reward that always has been the key difference. actively hunting, developing and using subs would be a huge step forward in western esports, its something that teams who are floating in spare money need to do if they want to stay relevent. its easy for the big teams like CLG to sit on their asses and just rely on popularity to keep their sponsorhip money flowing in, but we should be learning from example about this kind of thing. 2011-2013 EG is a perfect case study for why this is retarded. its all well and good being happy with your 'personalities' to keep your team relevant, but when they retire the sponsors (or most of their money) will leave with them. its clear from their change in attitude and spending that EG isnt as big a force in esports as it was 2 years ago. they were growing exponentially with idra, incontrol, and stephano all on the books. talking of developing a studio in LA, having a full sc2 roster (+subs) to drive improvement and experimenting with new online content on a weekly/monthly basis. their big names could only fall in popularity as they became less relevant in the scene (and stephano had never planned to stay long) and they were left with nothing in sc2, except the donger. if CLG and TSM want to be around in 2-5 years, and still be growing and bringing in the big bucks, they need to be building a system that consistantly turns out great players, not just milking the personalities they already have. its very hard to become a big personality if youve never had the good results, its much easier to develop the personality after already having success. tl;dr if they dont want to get srs about subs i think it sets the tone for everything else they will do with their teams, and i wouldnt be surprised if in 2 years they are fading away. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:43 turdburgler wrote: + Show Spoiler + rito could pay wages per player not per team up to a limit of X players. subs are basically required to change the mindset of the western world, otherwise theres no hope of catching korea. specializing for a certain champ or comp is reminiscent of the old BW training of being a sniper. and while its not what put the clear edge between korea and the west in that game, it was crucial in building the mentality towards training, improvement and reward that always has been the key difference. actively hunting, developing and using subs would be a huge step forward in western esports, its something that teams who are floating in spare money need to do if they want to stay relevent. its easy for the big teams like CLG to sit on their asses and just rely on popularity to keep their sponsorhip money flowing in, but we should be learning from example about this kind of thing. 2011-2013 EG is a perfect case study for why this is retarded. its all well and good being happy with your 'personalities' to keep your team relevant, but when they retire the sponsors (or most of their money) will leave with them. its clear from their change in attitude and spending that EG isnt as big a force in esports as it was 2 years ago. they were growing exponentially with idra, incontrol, and stephano all on the books. talking of developing a studio in LA, having a full sc2 roster (+subs) to drive improvement and experimenting with new online content on a weekly/monthly basis. their big names could only fall in popularity as they became less relevant in the scene (and stephano had never planned to stay long) and they were left with nothing in sc2, except the donger. if CLG and TSM want to be around in 2-5 years, and still be growing and bringing in the big bucks, they need to be building a system that consistantly turns out great players, not just milking the personalities they already have. its very hard to become a big personality if youve never had the good results, its much easier to develop the personality after already having success. tl;dr if they dont want to get srs about subs i think it sets the tone for everything else they will do with their teams, and i wouldnt be surprised if in 2 years they are fading away. I get that riot could do more to support subs, but I was more responding to the tone of the post implying that it's the teams failing to use subs, just pointing out how there isn't really any actual incentive for them to do so. The idea that a team could have multiple subs which they switch out depending on the comp, just straight out doesn't work in LoL. Firstly, you'd have to allow teams to swap out players, AFTER pick and bans are done. Otherwise teams would just tell what comp you were going for by your line up, ban it out, then you'd be fucked. That leads to a dumb situation where you have to ban out 8-10 players, which basically removes the whole idea of drafting "against" a team, which is a bad move and just promotes generic picking of op's. But mainly, in BW a player could practice in isolation, then play in isolation. LoL is a team game, the vast majority of top players have the mechanical skill to play most champions for their role at least decently, and can pick up new champions as required. The difference between top teams is mainly just their synergy, which they work full time for years to cultivate, and the idea that swapping out a teammate, and therefore all the synergy/training you have with him, just because the sub is *slightly* better at the chosen champion, doesn't really work at all... Having your mid learn a new champion is just a few weeks/months of practice. Trying to get synergy with a new mid player instead, so he can play the champion, is at minimum months of playing together, during which time your main mid laner will be losing it... The only way I see "subs" actually working in LoL is the way the koreans do it, sister teams. Have two complete rosters both playing at the top level, and have them work/train/live together. All the practice/futureproofing bonuses of having "subs" with none of the drawbacks. Although rito in their infinite wisdom decided to ban teams from having two sqauds in lcs, so yay rito tt | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Maybe I am just being cynical. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:54 Diamond wrote: Wtf does Verizon and AT&T have to do with anything? I think it was a pun on the word lag? Not sure how that works though edit: or maybe drawing paralells between kt and skt sponsorships, and i've just watched too much phreak and i'm seeing puns everywhere T.T | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Their seriously competitive soloQ and non-braindead team managers actually taking talent from it thus giving people reason to compete properly in it helps too..  If this happened and the challenger league filled up with these "2nd" teams all practicing hardcore with the 1st teams in LCS, im pretty sure we'd end up a whole-lot better off in terms of skill and competition. But hey, lets use brand-names to supplement streamers and personalities. An honest comparison of NA and Korea is NA is a hollywood film..Korea is a good one | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:56 Capped wrote: Koreas use of 2 teams is the perfect example of how subs should work. They basically bounce off eachother as practice partners and everyone improves because of it, raising the skill-level of the entire region and forcing other teams to do the same, thus repeating the cycle. If this happened and the challenger league filled up with these "2nd" teams all practicing hardcore with the 1st teams in LCS, im pretty sure we'd end up a whole-lot better off in terms of skill and competition. But do you really want half the better teams in a region to be stuck in challenger, just because their sister team is already in lcs? If TSM B, CLG B, and C9 B, are good enough to be in LCS, but are stuck in challenger because of the fact they're sister teams, then you end up with some shitty eco system where half the top 8 teams in a region are stuck in challenger just due to a technicality. You want the best of the best in LCS, not a situation where the bottom half of LCS would get stomped by the top half of challenger. Also makes it almost impossible for new teams to get into LCS, as the barrier to entry is these top LCS level teams who are better then half of the actual LCS, who are only stomping challenger because they're not allowed in. This only really works if you have a scene deep enough that good challenger teams are good enough to train with top LCS teams, and that's definitely not the case in NA/EU. I still think Riot should just remove the "no teams from same organisation," It makes no sense, I mean imagine the equivalent rule in SC2, or even just OGN champions | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:56 killerdog wrote: I think it was a pun on the word lag? Not sure how that works though edit: or maybe drawing paralells between kt and skt sponsorships, and i've just watched too much phreak and i'm seeing puns everywhere T.T Yes I am talking about sponsorship. E sports is simply not mainstream in NA. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
NA and EU teams just have shitty management structure for the most part. They get coaches they let go after one very successful season (see C9), plain just don't have coaches (see: EG, Dig), or just have major flaws in their structure (see: Velocity, MRN, XDG). Then some do get coaches and ignore the shit out of them (S3 Crs). It's ego and structure that is the problem, not $. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 15 2014 02:56 killerdog wrote: I think it was a pun on the word lag? Not sure how that works though edit: or maybe drawing paralells between kt and skt sponsorships, and i've just watched too much phreak and i'm seeing puns everywhere T.T its pointing out that SKT are sponsored by SK telecom... a company much larger than gaming chair companies. On May 15 2014 02:54 nafta wrote: Or they can just buy the amazing players from shitty teams like tsm did with bjerg and amazing or clg with dexter .i think they got lucky with bjergson that people took to him so well, but the others are not nearly as hugely popular. the problem with just importing talent is that you need to get at least as popular a replacement as you just lost every single time. theres no growth from within to gain the big name players, if you are only buying in, you can only get smaller. it might be slow, but its still a downward spiral. theres nothing in theory that says this must be true, but in practice i cant think of a single person that has changed team, LoL or SC2, and then gone on to become a bigger name than they would have been anyway staying where they were. On May 15 2014 02:53 killerdog wrote: The idea that a team could have multiple subs which they switch out depending on the comp, just straight out doesn't work in LoL. Firstly, you'd have to allow teams to swap out players, AFTER pick and bans are done. Otherwise teams would just tell what comp you were going for by your line up, ban it out, then you'd be fucked. That leads to a dumb situation where you have to ban out 8-10 players, which basically removes the whole idea of drafting "against" a team, which is a bad move and just promotes generic picking of op's. in theory anyway, its only the captain picking and banning anyway, making the calls. just because currently 5 players sit down at the PC and click in all the choices doesnt actually mean anything. riot could remake the tourney client to be a captain literally picks and bans all, then any 5 of your 5-10 players could sit down at the machines. theres nothing inherent that says you have to know the players before hand to have a fair chance. i think it adds more variety to the game and is healthy for not only the teams but also the esport. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On May 15 2014 03:14 Diamond wrote: Plenty of teams with sponsorships the size of Korean companies. Look at EG. Money ≠ Results. NA and EU teams just have shitty management structure for the most part. They get coaches they let go after one very successful season (see C9), plain just don't have coaches that actually coach (see: EG, Dig), or just have major flaws in their structure. Then some do get coaches and ignore the shit out of them. It's ego and structure that is the problem, not $. Teams would only need a coach if there is somene who has an ego that has to be kept in check.Honestly watching c9 at least for the moment don't need one.Their analyst seems to be doing enough. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On May 15 2014 03:16 nafta wrote: Teams would only need a coach if there is somene who has an ego that has to be kept in check.Honestly watching c9 at least for the moment don't need one.Their analyst seems to be doing enough. Yes professional sports teams ONLY hire coaches to keep ego's in check...... | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 15 2014 03:16 nafta wrote: Teams would only need a coach if there is somene who has an ego that has to be kept in check.Honestly watching c9 at least for the moment don't need one.Their analyst seems to be doing enough. thats why c9 are the best in the world, oh wait. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On May 15 2014 03:21 justiceknight wrote: soraka just got nerfed in PBE, the notes are out. I like the Blitz ult change, that mana cost was so weird. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On May 15 2014 01:07 Celial wrote: Is Pantheon jungle still top tier? Also, I really don't get Jax... I basically have to play like the biggest pussy ever (or die horrible and embarassing deaths) for the first 30 minutes. That is so much the opposite of what I usually play, it's really really hard and confusing. Should I watch vods from people like WingsofDeath on Youtube to better learn how to play Jax? Is it even worth it? Also, I really struggle with Ryze. Basically I can't farm for shit with that auto attack -.- God why is learning a new role so hard -.- yeah you are probably doing it wrong somehow. If you watch really good toplaners they can totally play jax even early against really strong matchups. I've seen Wings and dyrus win lanes solo against renekton etc solo at a high level. Jax is very strong, mostly its all about managing your ult charges and enemy skills so you make sure to use your E fully and land the stun. | ||
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