EPT[Patch 4.7] Braum General Discussion - Page 113
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On May 22 2014 02:56 ticklishmusic wrote: It's just a really frustrating playstyle where you have to basically play perfect while the enemy Leona/ Thresh whatever can derp around, eat some poke, then if they hit one good Q or E then they win lane. yea I feel like it's more a margin of error thing with sona right now | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 22 2014 02:35 Slayer91 wrote: sonas probably a good pick against morgana but everyone kinda forgot about her because they played annie instead, they are pretty similar Sona isn't that great versus Morgana because, like Thresh and Leona, Morgana can fish against Sona and if Sona gets rooted then its game over. Morgana can also Black Shield Sona's ult though its not easy. Because Sona Ult has a windup time this is a reaction on Morgana's part and not something Sona can easily stop(and Morgana has really strong counter-engage to a Sona ult since Soul Shackles literally does twice as much damage as Crescendo* with a lower or equivalent CD at all ranks) Karma/Lulu/Soraka are much stronger picks against Morgana because their poke is stronger and/or more consistent and because their speed up/shield/the fact that they aren't as weak as a minion make them harder to pick off. I mean look at the things being said about Sona "Sona isn't that bad she just sucks when behind and lacks the tools to get ahead and its really easy to get behind" "Sona isn't that bad, she is OK against one champion even though other champions are better at her against that one champion" I mean, i am OK with Sona being weak. Her play style, if done well, its pretty suffocating and unfun to play against. If she were strong, and her laning wasn't a tightrope then bottom lane would be worse off for it. *Crescendo does 150/250/350 damage + .5 AP Soul Shackles does 175/250/325 +.7 AP on the first tick and again on the second tick. A level 6 Morgana Shackle stun does more damage than a Level 16 Crescendo. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
She just need to be stronger level 1, so you're actually able to do what Teutonica was talking about versus Leona (pushing for fast 2 and then pushing under turret so you can gain levels safely). She needs to be able to do shit like that versus any support. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
On May 22 2014 03:31 Goumindong wrote: Sona isn't that great versus Morgana because, like Thresh and Leona, Morgana can fish against Sona and if Sona gets rooted then its game over. Morgana can also Black Shield Sona's ult though its not easy. Because Sona Ult has a windup time this is a reaction on Morgana's part and not something Sona can easily stop(and Morgana has really strong counter-engage to a Sona ult since Soul Shackles literally does twice as much damage as Crescendo* with a lower or equivalent CD at all ranks) Karma/Lulu/Soraka are much stronger picks against Morgana because their poke is stronger and/or more consistent and because their speed up/shield/the fact that they aren't as weak as a minion make them harder to pick off. I mean look at the things being said about Sona "Sona isn't that bad she just sucks when behind and lacks the tools to get ahead and its really easy to get behind" "Sona isn't that bad, she is OK against one champion even though other champions are better at her against that one champion" I mean, i am OK with Sona being weak. Her play style, if done well, its pretty suffocating and unfun to play against. If she were strong, and her laning wasn't a tightrope then bottom lane would be worse off for it. *Crescendo does 150/250/350 damage + .5 AP Soul Shackles does 175/250/325 +.7 AP on the first tick and again on the second tick. A level 6 Morgana Shackle stun does more damage than a Level 16 Crescendo. yeah but sonas ult has long range you have to sit in morganas ult for it to be full damage and morganas ult is only a slow until the full duration, its silly to compare them morgana can fish just like thresh/leona can just a lot worse, her follow up is miles worse and its a slow skillshot and she has no other damage like threshes autos and E lulu is way weaker at poking than sona is, soraka's poke is too short range she's actually a push// all in champ because starcall dps is so high because of the short cd soraka is about as weak to ganks as sona is as well, which is why she isn't played much as support anymore. lulu is hardly played as support too because her laning phase is weak in 2v2 compared to 1v1. not really sure about karma but her CC is good for escaping ganks which is why she has probably taken over sonas overall role decently | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
karmas mantra q does a lot more but im not sure how often you get to cast it ive played with and vs lulu in 2v2 and ive never experienced her to be strong without any junglers, her poke is easy to dodge and she runs out of mana fast, her auto animations are too long and if she pokes any bit she runs oom to use his W and R. It used to be worse when wild growth cost 150 mana, though. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On May 22 2014 04:14 Sponkz wrote: Karma shits on Morgana, because 1 Q is enough damage to remove the shield and then you're free to rap. Also if you know this cool, high elo trick called autoattacking you win trades versus Morgana http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/28395-upcoming-nidalee-gameplay-update Looks like they're neutering Nidalee. Sounds like a very confused version of Kha6 now. It seems kind of fitting they do a VU for Karthus and kill the cat. Lulu has crap mana costs now and it's hard to run any sort of mana regen on her (apart from gp5) now, but her kit is still pretty solid. It was top tier when bottom lane was kind of a tug of war instead of a cage fight. I was reading about horseracing the other day and it kind of fits. Back in the day a horse could win a Triple Crown, but it hasn't happened in a long time. Horses are bred to be a lot faster at the cost of stamina, so it's hard for a single horse to put together all three wins now. The horses with more stamina aren't fast enough to beat those at all though. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On May 22 2014 04:18 Slayer91 wrote: sona does the same thing with Q though, it does only 25 less damage at rank 2 and it's not a skillshot, also gives you more AD and power chord karmas mantra q does a lot more but im not sure how often you get to cast it ive played with and vs lulu in 2v2 and ive never experienced her to be strong without any junglers, her poke is easy to dodge and she runs out of mana fast, her auto animations are too long and if she pokes any bit she runs oom to use his W and R. It used to be worse when wild growth cost 150 mana, though. huh.. maybe I'm just playing against baddies then, I never had big problems playing as lulu except against thresh/soraka. Her mana is an issue though I definitely agree on that. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 22 2014 03:31 Goumindong wrote: Sona isn't that great versus Morgana because, like Thresh and Leona, Morgana can fish against Sona and if Sona gets rooted then its game over. Morgana can also Black Shield Sona's ult though its not easy. Because Sona Ult has a windup time this is a reaction on Morgana's part and not something Sona can easily stop(and Morgana has really strong counter-engage to a Sona ult since Soul Shackles literally does twice as much damage as Crescendo* with a lower or equivalent CD at all ranks) Karma/Lulu/Soraka are much stronger picks against Morgana because their poke is stronger and/or more consistent and because their speed up/shield/the fact that they aren't as weak as a minion make them harder to pick off. I mean look at the things being said about Sona "Sona isn't that bad she just sucks when behind and lacks the tools to get ahead and its really easy to get behind" "Sona isn't that bad, she is OK against one champion even though other champions are better at her against that one champion" I mean, i am OK with Sona being weak. Her play style, if done well, its pretty suffocating and unfun to play against. If she were strong, and her laning wasn't a tightrope then bottom lane would be worse off for it. *Crescendo does 150/250/350 damage + .5 AP Soul Shackles does 175/250/325 +.7 AP on the first tick and again on the second tick. A level 6 Morgana Shackle stun does more damage than a Level 16 Crescendo. Except you're not using Sona or Morgana ult for the damage...The damage on their ults are more or less irrelevant except maybe for level 6 engages. Even then the damage is completely overshadowed by their cc/utility effects. Sona's ult is one of the best initiation/counter-initiation spells in the game on a support. Her problem is a meta thing. When hard engage champs are popular in the bot lane, poke champs are unfavored. If hard engage champs leave the meta, Sona will be queen of the bot lane again. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
there's a certain inertia where champs will get played through nerfs because of the practice advantage but once they stop the champion needs to be good with less practice against more practice champs again and this is how the FoTM rotates | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 22 2014 04:26 Slayer91 wrote: you mightn't have problems, but you can't really win a lane unless your AD is playing better or they derp a lot Seriously? Lulu is one of the few supports who can hard carry a lane alone. She gets 9 damage per auto attack at level 1 (guaranteed if you start e) which puts her level 1 auto attack damage up to AD levels. I mean, if you don't auto attack you've got problems but if you do, you're golden. At level 1, Lulu E + Auto (80+auto damage +9 bonus) does more damage than Sona's Q + Power Chord (76+ auto damage+ 4 bonus). But Lulu gets her +9 damage auto's to continually do damage, which she can abuse because she has great base stats | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
lulus animations are slow which is why she can't really pull off mass auto stuff unless you can force the enemy back, you can auto and run with sona pretty well sonas Q is pretty weak at level 1, it doubles in damage when you hit level 3 though the reason is that sona would be too OP in level 1's if it did the same damage as a single target spell and hit two people and was undodgeable | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 22 2014 04:28 Slayer91 wrote: its more like sona was broken and nerfed like 5 times straight and now other champs got practiced there's a certain inertia where champs will get played through nerfs because of the practice advantage but once they stop the champion needs to be good with less practice against more practice champs again and this is how the FoTM rotates It's also how things get overnerfed/overbuffed. For the most part champion familiarity/comfort outweighs raw champion strength (it's how you get one-champ wonders that do very well on "bad" champs), so you need a very long time for people to adjust their overall play to account for the new changes. The estimate I always made was ~2 months to start seeing the effects of a moderate change really affect picking patterns. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
People are bad enough that she can bully a bunch of supports from level 1 and take over the lane with enough mana management, though. Not Leona, ironically, because her animation is bad enough that if Leona plays the bush game she can close most of the distance to Q you if you try autoing her. | ||
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