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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:18 Ketara wrote:
I have a question about this.
MonteCristo lives in Korea, right?
CLG's players live in America, right?
How much coaching does he actually do?
From what I can gather he gets scrim replays and relays information from Korea to CLG. It's most definitely an incredibly sub-optimal approach to coaching and with casting everything OGN I don't think he can really devote himself to coaching like say kkoma or joker have for their teams
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On April 24 2014 07:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). An important distinction: That's what Monte/CLG -claims- he is accomplishing. But has he really had a significant impact on CLG? Honestly I don't think so. Shake-ups in CLG's play has honestly come from one source - Dexter. That's it.
Monte's analysis is pretty much just like observational science, where it is a conversation starter for doing real empiricism and trying to figure out how the world works so you can make predictive models, but otherwise are just explanatory.
This is most obvious when teams in OGN bring out new tech that as a spectator you can make an explanation for, but wouldn't have figured out if you were actually the coach for that team.
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Baa?21245 Posts
Just gonna keep using random Chinese examples since that's what I know best - WE.Joker is widely considered a pretty decent coach in China. Not many people realize this but he actually -played- with WE back when they first formed before stepping back after they recruited more players. It automatically gives him insight into how a team actually functions than someone who just steps in.
It's also, in my opinion, a strong reason why iG has not performed nearly as well as WE over the course of the years - WE is an esports EMPIRE, iG is just some random guy with money. iG's players are some of the best individual players in the world - PDD, Zzitai, Kid - but they lack cohesion and a good coach. C9 was able to get away with it in NA because neither does anyone else. iG, with much higher raw skill, can't get away with it simply because everyone else of importance has good infrastructure.
Why is OMG good? OMG is the C9 of China, except taken to a much higher extreme. That and the fact that they were in an environment that allowed them to get an infrastructure as they got better.
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You guys are not giving Monte enough credit. He's pretty good. I think the coach role in League is highly exaggerated in the first place.. I mean, he's also lives across the world so it's not like you should really expect much anyway. And I really don't see where all of this is coming from anyway.. CLG seems like they're a pretty strong team nowadays anyway. All this NA is trash talk is also hugely exaggerated. CLG, TSM, C9 would perform just fine in Europe.
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On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two).
What can Montecristo do that a player on CLG can't?
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Baa?21245 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:21 Chrispy wrote:
You guys are not giving Monte enough credit. He's pretty good. I think the coach role in League is highly exaggerated in the first place.. I mean, he's also lives across the world so it's not like you should really expect much anyway. And I really don't see where all of this is coming from anyway.. CLG seems like they're a pretty strong team nowadays anyway. All this NA is trash talk is also hugely exaggerated. CLG, TSM, C9 would perform just fine in Europe.
I mean, EU LCS isn't that much better than NA LCS.
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On April 24 2014 07:21 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). What can Montecristo do that a player on CLG can't?
Discipline.
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On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue
I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot.
For example if a team always 4v0 pushes towers slower than their opponents, someone who watches a lot of games can maybe make that analysis, which the casual fan or the non pro high elo player might miss. But without having been in the same situation, some scrub like monte might also miss simple things like, oh the support nidalee wasn't spamming heal for attack speed on her AD, that they always hesitate when pushing because they wanna catch the enemy top/jungle in their jungle but always miss the timing, etc, etc. Those things are very difficult to observe from the outside, and if even if they could be, the responsibility lies with the players in becoming aware of those mistakes and adapting, because like, it's easier that way then having to hire someone else to tell you those things.
And imo that's what most coaching should be, not to devise or revise general strategies but ironing out small mistakes.
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On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two).
True. Monte will not teach you game tricks, or teach you how to outplay your lanes. What you are, is a guy who works on a map of 5 people, what monte does is to give you the knowledge of a guy who watch a map of 10 people.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot. For example if a team always 4v0 pushes towers slower than their opponents, someone who watches a lot of games can maybe make that analysis, which the casual fan or the non pro high elo player might miss. But without having been in the same situation, some scrub like monte might also miss simple things like, oh the support nidalee wasn't spamming heal for attack speed on her AD, that they always hesitate when pushing because they wanna catch the enemy top/jungle in their jungle but always miss the timing, etc, etc. Those things are very difficult to observe from the outside, and if even if they could be, the responsibility lies with the players in becoming aware of those mistakes and adapting, because like, it's easier that way then having to hire someone else to tell you those things. And imo that's what most coaching should be, not to devise or revise general strategies but ironing out small mistakes.
Teams also have analysts. My understanding is that analysts are more responsible for watching lots and lots of games and finding small things, whereas coaches are more responsible for managerial and broad strategies, and most importantly, line-up decisions. C9 has an analyst and I suspect, without any actual insider info, that that's what he does.
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On April 24 2014 06:49 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 06:25 Roffles wrote:
To put it bluntly, NA expects everyone they pick up to immediately pan out like Quas did with Curse. Picked a highly touted solo queue player who was able to transition that into LCS success. Then you have other scrubs like Innox who flat out just hasn't cut it for EG.
They're impatient and unreasonable to expect success so fast when there are many aspects to take into consideration (Meshing with team, enlarging champion pools, etc) To be fair most teams don't have the luxury of picking up new talent and letting if develop. One bad split and you're relegated and a lot of these teams can't survive without riot salary because there's not enough money in the amateur scene. Yeah it's getting better but it's still rough if you're not in LCS or don't have big sponsors. In the specific case of CLG they want to contend for a spot at worlds, they need someone who will perform fast. If LCS was formatted more like OGN maybe teams would be more patient
wtf no. In LCS, bottom 3 teams get relegated. In OGN, bottom HALF of all teams get relegated. If anything, LCS teams have greater stability than OGN teams. OGN has NLB, LCS has Coke League.
The reason why Korean/Chinese teams can afford to be patient is because they are all part of long-standing, established esports organizations. Some that have been around for a decade and/or are funded by giant corporations. This means even if they drop out of OGN into NLB the team still has funding. In NA, if teams drop out of LCS, there's no more salary support from Riot. That's not an issue with the LCS structure; that's due to the lack of infrastructure Cheep/Roffles were talking about.
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On April 24 2014 07:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot. For example if a team always 4v0 pushes towers slower than their opponents, someone who watches a lot of games can maybe make that analysis, which the casual fan or the non pro high elo player might miss. But without having been in the same situation, some scrub like monte might also miss simple things like, oh the support nidalee wasn't spamming heal for attack speed on her AD, that they always hesitate when pushing because they wanna catch the enemy top/jungle in their jungle but always miss the timing, etc, etc. Those things are very difficult to observe from the outside, and if even if they could be, the responsibility lies with the players in becoming aware of those mistakes and adapting, because like, it's easier that way then having to hire someone else to tell you those things. And imo that's what most coaching should be, not to devise or revise general strategies but ironing out small mistakes. Teams also have analysts. My understanding is that analysts are more responsible for watching lots and lots of games and finding small things, whereas coaches are more responsible for managerial and broad strategies, and most importantly, line-up decisions. C9 has an analyst and I suspect, without any actual insider info, that that's what he does.
When you say "teams" you mostly mean CN and KR right. They have the infrastructure to throw money at people to be like lane coaches and lifestyle coaches and everything else.
C9 worked really hard to get to where the are, and now are living the Jack Etienne dream.
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On April 24 2014 07:26 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 06:49 overt wrote:On April 24 2014 06:25 Roffles wrote:
To put it bluntly, NA expects everyone they pick up to immediately pan out like Quas did with Curse. Picked a highly touted solo queue player who was able to transition that into LCS success. Then you have other scrubs like Innox who flat out just hasn't cut it for EG.
They're impatient and unreasonable to expect success so fast when there are many aspects to take into consideration (Meshing with team, enlarging champion pools, etc) To be fair most teams don't have the luxury of picking up new talent and letting if develop. One bad split and you're relegated and a lot of these teams can't survive without riot salary because there's not enough money in the amateur scene. Yeah it's getting better but it's still rough if you're not in LCS or don't have big sponsors. In the specific case of CLG they want to contend for a spot at worlds, they need someone who will perform fast. If LCS was formatted more like OGN maybe teams would be more patient wtf no. In LCS, bottom 3 teams get relegated. In OGN, bottom HALF of all teams get relegated. If anything, LCS teams have greater stability than OGN teams. OGN has NLB, LCS has Coke League. The reason why Korean/Chinese teams can afford to be patient is because they are all part of long-standing, established esports organizations. Some that have been around for a decade and/or are funded by giant corporations. This means even if they drop out of OGN into NLB the team still has funding. In NA, if teams drop out of LCS, there's no more salary support from Riot. That's not an issue with the LCS structure; that's due to the lack of infrastructure Cheep/Roffles were talking about.
True. By having stable income, organization don't have to rely on celebrities to keep their organization relevant. If someone is bad, he will get replaced.
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Idk who C9's analyst was but Hai is really really analytical and I imagine lemon and their whole team is too. They do the work themselves, or at least Hai does.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
That is also a factor, world elite as a brand is almost too big to fail they'll have screaming fangirls LPL or not while royal club, iG and EDG got millionaire backing they have far more flexibility and ability to draw people than say coast. SKT can offer a comfy place and decent salary as long as kkoma's squads keep pumping out results, what's the incentive outside of ESPORTS PASSION to live and coach coast for peanuts at best? You might as well move on or go into casting (Oh hi there deficio)
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United States47024 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
It's also, in my opinion, a strong reason why iG has not performed nearly as well as WE over the course of the years - WE is an esports EMPIRE, iG is just some random guy with money. iG's players are some of the best individual players in the world - PDD, Zzitai, Kid - but they lack cohesion and a good coach. C9 was able to get away with it in NA because neither does anyone else. iG, with much higher raw skill, can't get away with it simply because everyone else of importance has good infrastructure.
To be fair, WE's kind of a bad example because they have a pretty mediocre team environment that's had some shitty management (see scumbag Aaron) that basically got to do whatever they wanted in the LoL scene because they were the first successful Chinese team and just rode their popularity and reputation to take players from lesser teams.
WE's kind of just riding entirely on their LoL team at this point--there's no "empire" left. Their DotA team was disbanded ages ago and LoveCD and Sky went inactive in SC2/War3 and are just subs for the LoL team now.
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I'm sorry but I just rofl at the title of LoL ANALYST like that dude has a fucking MBA in lane swaps and comes up with models based on dongerium theorems all day to help teams win.
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On April 24 2014 07:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Idk who C9's analyst was but Hai is really really analytical and I imagine lemon and their whole team is too. They do the work themselves, or at least Hai does.
Used to be this guy https://twitter.com/alexpenn
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:33 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Idk who C9's analyst was but Hai is really really analytical and I imagine lemon and their whole team is too. They do the work themselves, or at least Hai does. Used to be this guy https://twitter.com/alexpenn
It's some guy called Charlie atm idk his impact but it feels like lemonation and hai are the ones that really come up with the majority of the stuff C9 does (Notebook OP)
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oh yea the dude who made leaguepedia, like hey guys I made a wikipedia, but for league, I don't even create the entries but I'm an LOL ANALYST.
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EPT
