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On April 24 2014 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot. For example if a team always 4v0 pushes towers slower than their opponents, someone who watches a lot of games can maybe make that analysis, which the casual fan or the non pro high elo player might miss. But without having been in the same situation, some scrub like monte might also miss simple things like, oh the support nidalee wasn't spamming heal for attack speed on her AD, that they always hesitate when pushing because they wanna catch the enemy top/jungle in their jungle but always miss the timing, etc, etc. Those things are very difficult to observe from the outside, and if even if they could be, the responsibility lies with the players in becoming aware of those mistakes and adapting, because like, it's easier that way then having to hire someone else to tell you those things. And imo that's what most coaching should be, not to devise or revise general strategies but ironing out small mistakes.
Did you really just insinuate that it takes some high level of ability/skill to know that you push slower because you didn't use Nidalee heal for the aspd? While I don't attribute any sort of god status to Monte, he certainly picks up on shit like that, you hear him do it all the time when he casts.
Like, that shit is obvious to any observer who isn't literally retarded. Of course the team that WASTED TIME(it's right there, in your sentence) is going to push slower. My 5 year old nephew could pick up on that if I sat him down right next to me to watch his first league game ever and asked "which team will kill this building thing faster, the team with 4 people attacking it already or the team with 2 and 2 in the jungle doing nothing?"
Monte could literally just use the extra time he has in relation to a pro player(who probably needs to do other things besides watch VoDs all day every day) to outsource their information gathering and relay it to them, and let them digest the info he gives them(a very common practice in professional sports), and he is still an INCREDIBLE asset, even before you consider that he does actually have some inside knowledge of the Korean scene because he can do more than just watch their VoDs.
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On April 24 2014 07:01 Roffles wrote:
Montecristo won't help you learn how to play top lane. He will however improve your understanding of the game and how the team should play in order to win.
Yea. But can CLG afford a position coach and is there anyone with enough experience/willing to do it. Frankly it seems like it would be hard to have position coaches for each position. At that point you might as well make your position coaches a second team and have the strategist work both of them with the position coaches scrimming the main team and commenting. And then we're back to the Korean model.
On April 24 2014 07:22 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:21 Nos- wrote:On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). What can Montecristo do that a player on CLG can't? Discipline.
Not from Korea he can't
But to answer the dude you're quoting's question. Montecristo can give advise which is not tied to the emotional outcome of a game. Probably the biggest problems that players have is that, because they see something not work in their individual play they either think it doesn't work, or that they made a bad call. But oftentimes what happened was that they made the right call, say a 90/10 call that goes double kill either way but just came up poorly because the enemy jungler just happened to be farming golems instead of wraiths (or something), or they messed up the turret aggro juggle. Players will often look at that and say "i made a bad decision" when the decision wasn't actually bad, it just happened to have a bad outcome.
Additionally looking at the map as 5 lends to different analysis than looking at the map as a player. Because of Monte's large experience in Korea is he probably exposed to more games with more varying strategies than other people. While he is doing this in a pretty unstructured manner* he still has a potential advantage compared to other analysts(so long as he isn't dumb).
Players who are directly in a position need to focus on their own play and not the overall strategy. Having a player on the team be a shot caller is good, but having a player on the team also be responsible for devising strategy is a large knowledge and time load which will eat into their ability to be mechanically proficient. It can even reduce their ability to make decisions in game due to decision fatigue. You don't want to be strategizing for game 2 as you're losing game 1. But you still need/want someone to be strategizing for game 2 as you're playing game 1.
edit: think about TSM around the time Regi quit. Before this Regi was playing mid, shot calling, strategizing, choaching, and managing the team. He absolutely could not do all of that at once and it seriously hurt his play. When he came back to the team when Bjergson was out for his Visa renewal his play was much improved despite him being mechanically weaker simply because he was only in that "do everything" role for a very short period of time again (and potentially because playing less meant he had more effort to dedicate to understanding the game as 5/have a better rapport with the team)
*Not sure how you would really structure this type of analysis as there isn't really a coherent theory of League which is hammered down enough to do so quantitatively.
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On April 24 2014 07:40 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot. For example if a team always 4v0 pushes towers slower than their opponents, someone who watches a lot of games can maybe make that analysis, which the casual fan or the non pro high elo player might miss. But without having been in the same situation, some scrub like monte might also miss simple things like, oh the support nidalee wasn't spamming heal for attack speed on her AD, that they always hesitate when pushing because they wanna catch the enemy top/jungle in their jungle but always miss the timing, etc, etc. Those things are very difficult to observe from the outside, and if even if they could be, the responsibility lies with the players in becoming aware of those mistakes and adapting, because like, it's easier that way then having to hire someone else to tell you those things. And imo that's what most coaching should be, not to devise or revise general strategies but ironing out small mistakes. Did you really just insinuate that it takes some high level of ability/skill to know that you push slower because you didn't use Nidalee heal for the aspd? While I don't attribute any sort of god status to Monte, he certainly picks up on shit like that, you hear him do it all the time when he casts. Like, that shit is obvious to any observer who isn't literally retarded. Of course the team that WASTED TIME(it's right there, in your sentence) is going to push slower. My 5 year old nephew could pick up on that if I sat him down right next to me to watch his first league game ever and asked "which team will kill this building thing faster, the team with 4 people attacking it already or the team with 2 and 2 in the jungle doing nothing?" Monte could literally just use the extra time he has in relation to a pro player(who probably needs to do other things besides watch VoDs all day every day) to outsource their information gathering and relay it to them, and let them digest the info he gives them(a very common practice in professional sports), and he is still an INCREDIBLE asset, even before you consider that he does actually have some inside knowledge of the Korean scene because he can do more than just watch their VoDs.
I'm saying to make the observation that they push slower every time, and that which snowballs into further disadvantages. May not be the best example but you'd have to watch a lot of games to spot the bad habits of teams. And yes I'm insinuating either leveling up nidalee heal wrongly or forgetting to spam it or using too much mana too early, all of those minor things can lead to slower pushes, and no they are not as easy to spot as you'd think. You'd have to actually watch the replay itself and not a VOD. I'd like to meet your 5 year old nephew though maybe he can get a degree in advanced LoL analytics someday.
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Even if montecristo doesn't have the game experience to devise new strategies, I'm pretty sure at the current state of NA you can get pretty fucking far just by copying koreans.
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On April 24 2014 08:00 thenexusp wrote:
Even if montecristo doesn't have the game experience to devise new strategies, I'm pretty sure at the current state of NA you can get pretty fucking far just by copying koreans.
Pretty much.
Monte has been pretty instrumental from turning CLG from "team that loses to Coast" and turning them into guaranteed top 4 team. He's not going to innovate the strategies that lets Ozone completely shut out SKT though.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
It's also, in my opinion, a strong reason why iG has not performed nearly as well as WE over the course of the years - WE is an esports EMPIRE, iG is just some random guy with money. iG's players are some of the best individual players in the world - PDD, Zzitai, Kid - but they lack cohesion and a good coach. C9 was able to get away with it in NA because neither does anyone else. iG, with much higher raw skill, can't get away with it simply because everyone else of importance has good infrastructure.
To be fair, WE's kind of a bad example because they have a pretty mediocre team environment that's had some shitty management (see scumbag Aaron) that basically got to do whatever they wanted in the LoL scene because they were the first successful Chinese team and just rode their popularity and reputation to take players from lesser teams. WE's kind of just riding entirely on their LoL team at this point--there's no "empire" left. Their DotA team was disbanded ages ago and LoveCD and Sky went inactive in SC2/War3 and are just subs for the LoL team now.
I think their coaching team is fine even in spite of scumbag Aaron. And besides they have the most important thing which is $$$.
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On April 24 2014 07:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). An important distinction: That's what Monte/CLG -claims- he is accomplishing. But has he really had a significant impact on CLG? Honestly I don't think so. Shake-ups in CLG's play has honestly come from one source - Dexter. That's it.
I think clg still 3rd place NA team with or without monte. But they're a better team with monte. Do you seriously think they would play the same objective focused snowball without montecristo? imo this is the biggest problem for TSM when it came to play c9. They have enough individual talent to be #2 in NA. They don't need fancy macro strat to beat every single other NA team. But, the second they face a team that has as much individual talent, and strategy. They look like fucking utter shit. Right now CLG has a good chunk of strategical knowledge being inputted by Monte, now they need a top laner that doesn't cost them the game before the 10min marker.
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On April 24 2014 08:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). An important distinction: That's what Monte/CLG -claims- he is accomplishing. But has he really had a significant impact on CLG? Honestly I don't think so. Shake-ups in CLG's play has honestly come from one source - Dexter. That's it. I think clg still 3rd place NA team with or without monte. But they're a better team with monte. Do you seriously think they would play the same objective focused snowball without montecristo? imo this is the biggest problem for TSM when it came to play c9. They have enough individual talent to be #2 in NA. They don't need fancy macro strat to beat every single other NA team. But, the second they face a team that has as much individual talent, and strategy. They look like fucking utter shit. Right now CLG has a good chunk of strategical knowledge being inputted by Monte, now they need a top laner that doesn't cost them the game before the 10min marker.
MonteCristo to TSM is not going to help them beat C9.
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Well it would at least prevent them from picking Evelynn for TOO and Lee Sin for Dyrus, let alone a full-on all-in early game comp like they did in the first set.
Ugh, that made my head hurt.
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I'm kind of surprised that you guys think MonteCristo actually does very much at all for CLG.
He lives halfway across the planet in a vastly different timezone and has a full time job working with Korean teams and OGN shit. I'll ask again, how much serious coaching do you actually think he does?
Like, what do you even think "coaching" is. Do you think telling people to stop throwing at baron qualifies as coaching? I don't get it.
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On April 24 2014 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:11 TheYango wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue I should say that if you watch ALL games from every region, you will obviously be exposed to new strategies and metas compared to someone who's really good but doesn't watch games. But pro players do watch as many games as they can, or have time for, so I doubt there's anything extra someone like Monte can offer. It would be different if say... Reapered is the coach, having been on both sides, he knows the inner cause-and-effects, and would be able to spot errors or make inductions that someone who merely sees the appearances cannot.
That's the issue right there. Players don't have a whole ton of time to do these things while also scrimming and playing soloq. This lets the players focus on other things instead of dividing their attention in another direction.
On April 24 2014 07:26 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 06:49 overt wrote:On April 24 2014 06:25 Roffles wrote:
To put it bluntly, NA expects everyone they pick up to immediately pan out like Quas did with Curse. Picked a highly touted solo queue player who was able to transition that into LCS success. Then you have other scrubs like Innox who flat out just hasn't cut it for EG.
They're impatient and unreasonable to expect success so fast when there are many aspects to take into consideration (Meshing with team, enlarging champion pools, etc) To be fair most teams don't have the luxury of picking up new talent and letting if develop. One bad split and you're relegated and a lot of these teams can't survive without riot salary because there's not enough money in the amateur scene. Yeah it's getting better but it's still rough if you're not in LCS or don't have big sponsors. In the specific case of CLG they want to contend for a spot at worlds, they need someone who will perform fast. If LCS was formatted more like OGN maybe teams would be more patient wtf no. In LCS, bottom 3 teams get relegated. In OGN, bottom HALF of all teams get relegated. If anything, LCS teams have greater stability than OGN teams. OGN has NLB, LCS has Coke League.
If LCS was formatted like Champions, sister teams would be allowed and would expand to 16 teams. This would mean and entire current LCS sized group of teams would get through. It would also cause more turnover at the lower levels as instead of having shit teams stink it up for half a season, they get booted after 6 games.
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On April 24 2014 08:12 Ketara wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys think MonteCristo actually does very much at all for CLG.
He lives halfway across the planet in a vastly different timezone and has a full time job working with Korean teams and OGN shit. I'll ask again, how much serious coaching do you actually think he does?
He just gets on Skype and says "listen up shitlords, don't let Doublelift pick Vayne and PvE for 30 mins because he gave up on his team at the 5 min mark while the rest of you guys feed"
And I'm pretty sure TSM knew perfectly well that what they're doing isn't meta strong, but as the 2nd best team you can't play the best team's strategy and hope to beat them at it.
In the "Summoning Insight" thing with Thorin, Monte mentioned that they learend a lot about how to play in 4.6 from scrims with C9 which is great to copy them if your goal is to not be shitter Cursnitas relegation tier, but emulating C9 isn't going to let you beat C9 if you're TSM.
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On April 24 2014 08:15 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 08:12 Ketara wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys think MonteCristo actually does very much at all for CLG.
He lives halfway across the planet in a vastly different timezone and has a full time job working with Korean teams and OGN shit. I'll ask again, how much serious coaching do you actually think he does? He just gets on Skype and says "listen up shitlords, don't let Doublelift pick Vayne and PvE for 30 mins because he gave up on his team at the 5 min mark while the rest of you guys feed"
This is about what I picture. And that's not really coaching.
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On April 24 2014 08:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 07:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote:On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote:On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). An important distinction: That's what Monte/CLG -claims- he is accomplishing. But has he really had a significant impact on CLG? Honestly I don't think so. Shake-ups in CLG's play has honestly come from one source - Dexter. That's it. I think clg still 3rd place NA team with or without monte. But they're a better team with monte. Do you seriously think they would play the same objective focused snowball without montecristo? imo this is the biggest problem for TSM when it came to play c9. They have enough individual talent to be #2 in NA. They don't need fancy macro strat to beat every single other NA team. But, the second they face a team that has as much individual talent, and strategy. They look like fucking utter shit. Right now CLG has a good chunk of strategical knowledge being inputted by Monte, now they need a top laner that doesn't cost them the game before the 10min marker.
CLG's play style definitely changed when MonteCristo started coaching them. That much is for sure. I shouldn't have to go dig up replays of Doublelift (on Vayne no less) farming bottom lane at 50 minutes when there is a fight mid lane. CLG's strategic play massively improved when they bought on MonteCristo and whether or not that is just because he has given them really obvious "listen up shitlords" advice or because he has actually done significant valuable analysis i don't know. But lets not pretend that shit didn't change
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I was telling Yango that I see Monte more as an Offensive Coordinator in football, or something to that effect(note that I don't actually know what he does for CLG, I could be very wrong). From the conversations we are privy to, it sounds like he gives them direction on how to win the game, general map movement he wants to see from them, what their goals should be, objective priority, shit like that. He doesn't however actually do any of the micro managing of telling them how to go about doing those in-game things, that's probably on the players.
He calls the plays, they run them. By his account, CLG did not run the plays he called for the entirety of the TSM series, which is possibly a large part of why they lost after looking so dominant for 1.5 games of the series.
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On April 24 2014 08:16 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 08:15 xes wrote:On April 24 2014 08:12 Ketara wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys think MonteCristo actually does very much at all for CLG.
He lives halfway across the planet in a vastly different timezone and has a full time job working with Korean teams and OGN shit. I'll ask again, how much serious coaching do you actually think he does? He just gets on Skype and says "listen up shitlords, don't let Doublelift pick Vayne and PvE for 30 mins because he gave up on his team at the 5 min mark while the rest of you guys feed" This is about what I picture. And that's not really coaching.
"Stop doing the bad things you're doing and start doing these better things" is probably the essence of coaching.
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On April 24 2014 08:12 Ketara wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys think MonteCristo actually does very much at all for CLG.
He lives halfway across the planet in a vastly different timezone and has a full time job working with Korean teams and OGN shit. I'll ask again, how much serious coaching do you actually think he does?
Like, what do you even think "coaching" is. Do you think telling people to stop throwing at baron qualifies as coaching? I don't get it.
Telling the team not to throw at baron (and getting them to accept it) would improve like 8 of the 16 LCS teams.
I think a lot of people are conflating who Montecristo is, with the role that he is playing for CLG. Just about any TLGDer who watches LCS, OGN, etc could do what he does, which is providing an outside voice. CLG already has Hotshot for the real coaching, what Monte (probably) does is say "look this is a shitty play you guys seem to be doing a lot". The reason a random TLGDer doesnt have that job is because Doublelift would just tell them to STFU. So Monte does a simple job of playing devils advocate, and picking important international VODs for the team to watch, but his value is that he is high profile enough for the players to actually listen.
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I think everyone knows what Monte's real job is.
It's to make strategy spinners.
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I asked this earlier but I vaguely remember a LCS/Pro LoL podcast/talk show hosted by Neo and a few other high Elo players being announced. Is that running (link?) or did I dream it?
Been listening to more and more podcasts, haven't been able to find a good LoL/pro analysis one though.
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I feel what every lol team needs is not a strategist (at least not for NA). They need a manager with strong leadership and communication who can keep track and promote the growth of each player.
Well, and remind them to not throw baron.
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EPT
