EPTNien in a role he's actually good at (i.e. AD fucking carry) would be one of those shiphturs
[Patch 4.6] Twitch VU General Discussion - Page 30
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Nien in a role he's actually good at (i.e. AD fucking carry) would be one of those shiphturs | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
On April 24 2014 06:52 Fusilero wrote: To be fair that's exactly what they tried with nien I don't think that's what they tried with Nien. They tried getting a "mechanical" player (whatever that means?) and stick him in top and assumed he could carry the team. They provided no guidance on how he should succeed in that lane. CLG was absolutely mediocre with him. How did they get good? Importing an European jungler who kind of knew how to play the game and then they're magically top 3. They did not try to "build up" Nien. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure that's what they thought they were doing in their minds, but in reality, what they did was grab him, stick him top, and then grab a new player to boost them up in the rankings to give the illusion that they're getting better. Can you honestly say Nien got significantly better as a top laner over half a year beyond the stuff any brain dead idiot could've picked up playing a lane for 6 months full time? C9 built up Balls. CLG didn't do shit with Nien. Is it on the players? Yeah, definitely a large part rests on the individual, don't get me wrong, but an often neglected, and just as important part, lies in the management in placing people in the correct positions and allowing them to get better. I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 24 2014 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: And when five Shiphturs happen to coalesce, you get the only non-garbage NA team, C9. Shiphtur just needs to pray to god he can find 4 more people like him. In fact I said this exact same thing before - C9 did not just magically appear out of nowhere, these guys were like bottom of the barrel for two years across many random teams playing shitty amateur leagues and online tournament qualifiers before they finally got together, STILL failed to qualify LCS, but toughed it out. And now they're at least 10x better than anyone else in NA. Even more impressive was the fact that When C9 went through all this, amateur scene support was non-existent. You think support for challenger teams is bad now? The prize pool today is 100x larger than when C9 was getting through amateur tourneys back in the day. You legitimately have a tournament that paves a direct, no-nonsense method of getting into the LCS - all you have to do is win. Why do you think LMQ saw the opportunity and pounced? They knew that, as a professional team with real organization and infrastructure behind them, walking into the LCS will be the easiest paycheck of their lives. Is Cloud 9 the outlier of innate talent and perserverance then? What about the MME teams? Coast was Team Dynamic and scraping the bottom of the TSM Invitational barrel along with Orbit Gaming before they were C9, yet somehow are constantly fighting to try to not be the worst team in LCS. There was also mTw.NA-> Vulcun. Actually, MME has the largest roster of former players who are now pro in the LCS. Maybe NA needs to go back to S2 for its non-LCS scene. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On April 24 2014 06:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I'm also wholly unconvinced in MonteCristo as a coach BTW. I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? | ||
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Zhiroo
Kosovo2724 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? There's also a bunch of stuff you can learn much better watching than just playing and using intuition, in situations where decisions are far removed from their outcomes. I'm not extremely familiar, but from discussions with a friend who's very much into the history of Baseball statistics, there are a lot of strategical moves that are better EV plays that many players don't have intuition for and refused to believe when it first came out. Monte can't teach you how to be a Top laner but he can teach you how to watch replays as a team and how not to lose all your towers at the 18 minute mark. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 24 2014 06:25 Roffles wrote: To put it bluntly, NA expects everyone they pick up to immediately pan out like Quas did with Curse. Picked a highly touted solo queue player who was able to transition that into LCS success. Then you have other scrubs like Innox who flat out just hasn't cut it for EG. They're impatient and unreasonable to expect success so fast when there are many aspects to take into consideration (Meshing with team, enlarging champion pools, etc) The business model for E-sports on NA also favors having players who are marketable or already popular over ones that are actually good. Like, you could try and find talent that would make a real team, train them for ages, then MAYBE have the accomplish something---OR you could find some pubstar shitter who already gets 10k+ viewers on Twitch, half-ass your way through amateur tournaments, and just leech viewership off their existing fanbase. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? He doesn't. He's just really good at sounding smart and making people worse than him think he knows what the fuck he's talking about and/or parroting what people better than him have said. I should know, it's all I ever did on TL huehue | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
In fact, this ties in with the brief MonteCristo chat we had in the OGN thread earlier today. I don't find Monte insufferable, but he gets a lot more credit than what he deserves simply because lolkorea. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:10 Fusilero wrote: epic KT rolster whatever the fuck shen global submarine dragon kimchi strategy Eheheheheheheheheheheheheheh | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:02 xes wrote: Is Cloud 9 the outlier of innate talent and perserverance then? What about the MME teams? Coast was Team Dynamic and scraping the bottom of the TSM Invitational barrel along with Orbit Gaming before they were C9, yet somehow are constantly fighting to try to not be the worst team in LCS. There was also mTw.NA-> Vulcun. Actually, MME has the largest roster of former players who are now pro in the LCS. Maybe NA needs to go back to S2 for its non-LCS scene. Cloud 9 is definitely an outlier, and it took them a couple of years to solidify their roster into a group of like-minded individuals who worked well with each other and who were OK with not being Wingsofdeathx 20k streamer TSMTSM for a long time before they became good. It's difficult to find 5 people who can accomplish that without an infrastructure to catalyze the process, which is why after all these years, Cloud 9 is literally the only team to emerge. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
C9's "analyst" is now on Coast right? We all know how well that's working out. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
dragon kimchi is now code for twitch | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? I think there are things you can be very good at by merely being a spectator, but it gets quickly outweighed the more you play the game. It's like a weighted ratio of like 80-20 or even 90-10, and yes it's extreme, but spectators shouldn't be -wholly- discounted, but nor should they be counted on to single handedly transform a team. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:05 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm just so confused, like I've really mentioned before, at how someone who spends time watching but not playing pro games and know nothing of the inner mechanics could have any knowledge of improving a team. Like how does he magically become an authority on league strategy? If I never played BW but watched every pro league game, how does that make me magically more knowledgeable than someone who sucks but at least plays? Like isn't it obvious that there's a bunch of stuff you can't learn by just watching? If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
On April 24 2014 07:16 Azelja wrote: If you just watch every pro league game you won't know jack. If you, however, analyze every single game down to it's deepest core, hell yeah, you are going to know how shit works in specific ways. Not necessarily on the micro but on the macro-level. And he is not the coach for specific lane match-ups or what have you, he's getting them to get their shit together, both outside the game and with communications and decision making ingame (at least that is the stuff that he himself mentioned, might have forgotten a thing or two). An important distinction: That's what Monte/CLG -claims- he is accomplishing. But has he really had a significant impact on CLG? Honestly I don't think so. Shake-ups in CLG's play has honestly come from one source - Dexter. That's it. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
MonteCristo lives in Korea, right? CLG's players live in America, right? How much coaching does he actually do? | ||
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