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On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. He's definitely a difficult champion to balance because of the nature of his kit, though. I think he could be an interesting candidate for a rework.
and thresh can carry 10x times harder and has a lot more utility
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For the blitz being viable discussion think about this: if thresh can still hit hooks (after a windup) than why wouldn't blitz be able to? I feel like he has very good synergies with certain champs, but I also agree that he's less viable than other supports. That being said... If they have a divecomp he's godly for pulling the champs AWAY from your adc making his peel retardly strong at times.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On April 23 2014 20:45 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:36 nafta wrote:On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote:
If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose. Well you see the champs that are REALLY good vs him also are kind of what you see in almost every game anyway.Obviously you can win games with blitz you can win games with every single champ in the game in every position.Doesn't mean it can be used consistently or is good in general. Of course he can be used consistently. I'm not saying he's a top tier pick or is going to be seen in competitive play or anything; all I'm saying is that he's a viable pick at high elo and it's silly to say otherwise.
define viable
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 23 2014 21:03 Uldridge wrote:
For the blitz being viable discussion think about this: if thresh can still hit hooks (after a windup) than why wouldn't blitz be able to? I feel like he has very good synergies with certain champs, but I also agree that he's less viable than other supports. That being said... If they have a divecomp he's godly for pulling the champs AWAY from your adc making his peel retardly strong at times.
Or you can just pick Thresh.
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On April 23 2014 21:03 Uldridge wrote:
For the blitz being viable discussion think about this: if thresh can still hit hooks (after a windup) than why wouldn't blitz be able to? I feel like he has very good synergies with certain champs, but I also agree that he's less viable than other supports. That being said... If they have a divecomp he's godly for pulling the champs AWAY from your adc making his peel retardly strong at times.
But when thresh misses his hook he is still thresh with his other 3 good abilities.
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Blitz's only crap ability is his W, and even that is up for debate. Everything else is still really good. Just look at the absurd base damage and cooldown on his R.
It is just that Thresh is broken.
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Thresh ult does more damage actually and isn't a purely damage ability.
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Or you can just pick Thresh.
But when thresh misses his hook he is still thresh with his other 3 good abilities.
I'm not saying Thresh isn't better, but hook into knockup or just knockup (which has quite a short cd) isn't that bad as people are making it out to be. And going in on a death sentence doesn't always secure a won trade or a kill, while the Blitz reward for just a hook (like someone typed earlier) is much higher. But yeah, Thresh has a much more useful kit
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On April 23 2014 21:15 Sufficiency wrote:
Blitz's only crap ability is his W, and even that is up for debate. Everything else is still really good. Just look at the absurd base damage and cooldown on his R.
It is just that Thresh is broken.
How come Blitz's crap ability is W? You can chase anyone and position urself immediately. Come on. You always max W after Q first.
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On April 23 2014 21:23 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:15 Sufficiency wrote:
Blitz's only crap ability is his W, and even that is up for debate. Everything else is still really good. Just look at the absurd base damage and cooldown on his R.
It is just that Thresh is broken.
How come Blitz's crap ability is W? You can chase anyone and position urself immediately. Come on. You always max W after Q first.
he doesnt really need it, half the other characters dont have a speed boost and still manage to go just fine. plus the attack speed is pretty ehh. seems more fit for the pre s1, rush triforce and carry era of blitz
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On April 23 2014 21:23 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:15 Sufficiency wrote:
Blitz's only crap ability is his W, and even that is up for debate. Everything else is still really good. Just look at the absurd base damage and cooldown on his R.
It is just that Thresh is broken.
How come Blitz's crap ability is W? You can chase anyone and position urself immediately. Come on. You always max W after Q first.
It is crap because it doesn't add meaningfully to his team fight. At best, it helps make up for poor anticipation on your part. How many times does it let you get in place somewhere you couldn't without it if you just moved quicker/anticipated? Rarely. If it gave a nice defensive buff, maybe it wouldn't feel so bad.
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It gives him more pressure in lane with the threat of W -> walk up to an enemy and E him -> easy Q when he tries to run away.
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Speed boost is always useful on any champion. However, the attack speed is shitty on him, plus it costs a chunk of his mana.
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Personally I think if duo mid was more of a thing, Blitzcrank would be more viable.
His kit is better suited for duo lane play compared to Thresh.
1 - Movespeed boost lets him roam.
2 - His grab is better for securing objectives and better in a short lane environment (Thresh more likely to have to pull himself into enemy tower)
3 - Silence on his ult hurts casters like popular mid laners more than autoattackers like popular bot laners.
4 - Shorter lane means the utility from Thresh lantern not as big a deal.
5 - Mana shield helps defend against bursty champs like popular mid laners more than autoattackers like popular bot laners.
Really though, Blitzcrank is still very very good in low elo, just because his grab is better than Thresh's. Personally in high plat where I'm at I never see Blitzcrank bans anymore, but I still occasionally see him absolutely slaughter some hapless bot lane.
Or, to put it another way, I don't think Blitzcrank is bad, it's more that Thresh is way too good and we all know he's needed nerfs for ages.
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I didn't see him being banned even in silver... this is before FF.
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Blitz is a breaking point champion, a lot like thresh. He either is strong enough to survive lane and win trades landing hooks, and is OP, or they make the numbers so untenable that he is essentially out of the game (and picking him turns into a huge gamble with a potentially big payoff).
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On April 23 2014 22:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I didn't see him being banned even in silver... this is before FF.
he ate alot of nerfs before them. the mana cost nerfs arent as huge of a nerf as people gripe about since this isnt dota and you dont regen like .5 mana every 5 seconds. certainly frustrating, but he is still a high risk high reward type character.
his pulls are better for isolating/catching someone than threshes, he just doesnt bring the utility of the box/flay. nor the escape from lantern
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On April 23 2014 22:42 Ketara wrote:
Personally I think if duo mid was more of a thing, Blitzcrank would be more viable.
His kit is better suited for duo lane play compared to Thresh.
1 - Movespeed boost lets him roam.
2 - His grab is better for securing objectives and better in a short lane environment (Thresh more likely to have to pull himself into enemy tower)
3 - Silence on his ult hurts casters like popular mid laners more than autoattackers like popular bot laners.
4 - Shorter lane means the utility from Thresh lantern not as big a deal.
5 - Mana shield helps defend against bursty champs like popular mid laners more than autoattackers like popular bot laners.
Really though, Blitzcrank is still very very good in low elo, just because his grab is better than Thresh's. Personally in high plat where I'm at I never see Blitzcrank bans anymore, but I still occasionally see him absolutely slaughter some hapless bot lane.
Or, to put it another way, I don't think Blitzcrank is bad, it's more that Thresh is way too good and we all know he's needed nerfs for ages.
His mana pool does not really allow him to spam W and run around....
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On April 23 2014 21:05 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:45 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 20:36 nafta wrote:On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote:
If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose. Well you see the champs that are REALLY good vs him also are kind of what you see in almost every game anyway.Obviously you can win games with blitz you can win games with every single champ in the game in every position.Doesn't mean it can be used consistently or is good in general. Of course he can be used consistently. I'm not saying he's a top tier pick or is going to be seen in competitive play or anything; all I'm saying is that he's a viable pick at high elo and it's silly to say otherwise. define viable
I would consider a champion viable if and only if he was the optimal pick in some scenarios with reasonable champpool expectations and reasonable skill difference (similiarity) between players.
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On April 23 2014 23:20 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:05 Scip wrote:On April 23 2014 20:45 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 20:36 nafta wrote:On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote:
If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose. Well you see the champs that are REALLY good vs him also are kind of what you see in almost every game anyway.Obviously you can win games with blitz you can win games with every single champ in the game in every position.Doesn't mean it can be used consistently or is good in general. Of course he can be used consistently. I'm not saying he's a top tier pick or is going to be seen in competitive play or anything; all I'm saying is that he's a viable pick at high elo and it's silly to say otherwise. define viable I would consider a champion viable if and only if he was the optimal pick in some scenarios with reasonable champpool expectations and reasonable skill difference (similiarity) between players.
You forgot to change accounts.
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EPT
