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On April 23 2014 18:45 chalice wrote:
the thing with braum's passive is even if you land your single target skillshot it seems like you have zero non-ult counterplay to a marked opponent just walking away from you and staying out of range until the debuff expires.
a champ with garbage damage, garbage cc, garbage harass, and garbage scaling seems way more "unfun" than dealing with toxic playstyles that riot nerfed out of existence. at least nautilus has some impactful crowd control to somewhat make up for not being able to kill anyone.
being so reliant on your teammates or opponents to do anything at all seems like super aids in a solo queue environment and in competitive play i'm not seeing how he has any value at all in a lane swap or tower pushing situation.
pretty sure if they walk way out of range and wait on a debuff to expire then thats way more useful than a stun
making them start playing like a bitch is just as effective
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On April 23 2014 18:45 chalice wrote:
the thing with braum's passive is even if you land your single target skillshot it seems like you have zero non-ult counterplay to a marked opponent just walking away from you and staying out of range until the debuff expires.
a champ with garbage damage, garbage cc, garbage harass, and garbage scaling seems way more "unfun" than dealing with toxic playstyles that riot nerfed out of existence. at least nautilus has some impactful crowd control to somewhat make up for not being able to kill anyone.
being so reliant on your teammates or opponents to do anything at all seems like super aids in a solo queue environment and in competitive play i'm not seeing how he has any value at all in a lane swap or tower pushing situation.
Zero counterplay to a marked opponent walking away...? It slows them, and you need just three more autos after that to get the stun. Unless they have an escape, your ADC is going to be able to get 3 more hits. He can stun multiple people in a fight, has two huge slows and a knock up. You can hit someone with your Q to slow them for two seconds, then stun them for 1.75 seconds, then knock them up for 1.5 seconds, then they're slowed for 1.5 seconds. That is a LOT of CC.
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On April 23 2014 17:34 aurawashere wrote:
he has the same mana pool as blitz and he has worse tank stats than blitz
Thresh has a higher mana pool. He gains 4 more mana per level than Blitz. More importantly, however, his abilities don't cost half his mana pool.
A champ's stats and numbers are extremely important. Before Riot repeatedly nerfed Blitz's numbers he was a very strong pick. It wasn't until they made Blitz pull cost literally half his mana pool when he really started to fall heavily out of favor.
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It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support.
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On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support.
Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast.
That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength.
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On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength.
The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place.
He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap.
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Not to mention you can pick alistar or leona and simply stay in front of your ad and auto win every 2v2.
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On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap.
Not sure I agree with that. When Blitz was popular, stuff like Ez and Corki were also extremely popular. ADC mobility hasn't really changed much since he was popular; if anything AD carry mobility has decreased with stuff like Jinx and Twitch seeing more play.
While pro players have gotten better at dodging skillshots, pro players have also gotten better at landing them. Pros land plenty of Thresh hooks, which is arguably harder skillshot to land. The problem with Blitz is that when his pull is on cooldown, he's virtually completely useless. His previously sketchy laning is now completely unplayable as he cannot afford to miss any skillshots, since he literally cannot do anything after 2 casts of his Q.
Blitz has a very problematic kit in the sense that he's probably the best example of one-trick pony in the game. If his Q is spammable enough, he's (potentially) overpowered. If it's not, he's useless.
While meta changes certainly affected Blitz's pick rate, imo the nerfs were a far larger influence on his fall from favor.
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On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap.
Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. He's definitely a difficult champion to balance because of the nature of his kit, though. I think he could be an interesting candidate for a rework.
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On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games.
Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't.
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Blitz faces where he's going to hook a soon as you cast, Thresh only does it fter the wind-up and has more range (and a pretty retarded hitbox, it's wide enough at the tip that you can get hit even if the projectile particle falls short or flies by your side without touching you), it's actually much harder to juke.
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On April 23 2014 20:15 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't.
Don't worry, I got your back:
"but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap."
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
On April 23 2014 20:15 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't.
He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. = can't carry games statement. At least it means the same for me.
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On April 23 2014 20:17 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:15 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't. Don't worry, I got your back: "but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap."
How is he not?If you play vs a competent morgana you will NEVER land a hook.Even if his teammates have the iq of a rock.
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On April 23 2014 20:17 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:15 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't. Don't worry, I got your back: "but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap."
So a good blitz versus a good lucian and morgana, will win or what are you trying to say?
Obviously, a good blitzcrank can win games, but when you start equalizing the skill-levels it gets significantly harder.
On April 23 2014 20:18 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:15 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:On April 23 2014 19:49 Sponkz wrote:On April 23 2014 19:44 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 23 2014 19:40 Sponkz wrote:
It's pretty darn fair that Blitzcrank's pull cost that much mana. Before it was manageable to just stand in lane and try for a grab once in a while, but there were no actual punishment for it. Having mana being a punishment for when you hit a skill-shot is not a bad thing, especially not on Blitzcrank who has more up-front burst than Thresh.
EDIT: The reward for hitting Blitzcrank pull is bigger than hitting Thresh Hook. You literally force flash/heal instantly, where as Thresh is much more about your hooked target's position and his ad/support. Not sure I agree with that. Those nerfs turned Blitz from a Thresh-level pick to literally unplayable in competitive. Yes, Blitz hook is far stronger than Thresh hook in the vast majority of cases, but Blitz hook is basically 90% of his kit. Blitz who can't hook is a glorified melee minion. Obviously, Blitz hook shouldn't cost the same as Thresh's hook, but literally costing half his mana pool is insane. I can't think of any other champion in League who empties half their mana pool with literally just one ability cast. That being said, I was just showing how numbers are extremely important in gauging a champion's strength. The problem really lies within the fact, that he has a spell that is countered by roughly 50% of all AD's (dem dashes) and now that morgana is super popular as well, he has no place. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. Not true at all. A good Blitz player can still carry games. Wow really? I totally forgot that i said he couldn't. He's strong against inferior players, where your madlife plays can truly shine, but you're right that when we get to a respectable skill level, he's pretty crap. = can't carry games statement. At least it means the same for me.
He can carry games, but only to the extent where your opponents pick poorly or play poorly. There's just no way you're getting near a reasonable target against someone like Morgana.
EDIT: The poor play can happen in any skill-tier, it's just more likely to happen in say low diamond/high plat than in d1/challenger.
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If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
but aren't morgana and leona more or less the go-to picks right now anyway, regardless of what support you pick? Alongside Thresh anyway
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On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote:
If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose.
Well you see the champs that are REALLY good vs him also are kind of what you see in almost every game anyway.Obviously you can win games with blitz you can win games with every single champ in the game in every position.Doesn't mean it can be used consistently or is good in general.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/100skillz
Testing Braum on PBE. That shield eating Lucian ult aws awesome. This shit looks like a sure ban from what I've seen, LOL, so strong.
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On April 23 2014 20:36 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote:
If you only first pick Blitzcrank and then get countered and then people react perfectly against you, then yes, you'll have a tough time. But none of those things are always going to be the case. That's like saying you can't play Singed in high elo because you'll always go up against a good Kayle and lose. Well you see the champs that are REALLY good vs him also are kind of what you see in almost every game anyway.Obviously you can win games with blitz you can win games with every single champ in the game in every position.Doesn't mean it can be used consistently or is good in general.
Of course he can be used consistently. I'm not saying he's a top tier pick or is going to be seen in competitive play or anything; all I'm saying is that he's a viable pick at high elo and it's silly to say otherwise.
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EPT
