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United States47024 Posts
On March 06 2014 06:40 Ketara wrote:
There are still lots of champions in the game who have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management during laning.
This just represents a difference in philosophy. For my part, I see no reason why it should not be the case that all mana using chaps have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management for the entire game. Not just laning. The resource is there, so there's zero reason that, by design, those champs should not demand the skill-intensive component of the mechanic for the entire game. From a design standpoint I just don't really see why this should not be the case.
Put differently, your standpoint is:
"There are still champs that have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management so this is fine."
Whereas mine is closer to:
"There exist mana using champs that don't have prohibitive mana costs and don't require significant mana management and this is a problem."
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On March 06 2014 10:07 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 10:01 Scip wrote:On March 06 2014 09:52 Gahlo wrote:On March 06 2014 09:49 Scip wrote:
Yeah gp support sounds good but I personally like ww support more  No dude. I'am sure it doesn't work well vs competent players. However league is full of players forced into support role and have no idea how strong his level six allin is thanks to his ultimate and W. It's also fun to play gangplank. If I wanted to be hipster cool I could play veigar or trundle support.
It's really fun to play ww support too
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On March 06 2014 10:07 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 10:01 Scip wrote:On March 06 2014 09:52 Gahlo wrote:On March 06 2014 09:49 Scip wrote:
Yeah gp support sounds good but I personally like ww support more No dude. I'am sure it doesn't work well vs competent players. However league is full of players forced into support role and have no idea how strong his level six allin is thanks to his ultimate and W. It's also fun to play gangplank. If I wanted to be hipster cool I could play veigar or trundle support.
I played trundle support one game, learned pillar condemn combo does not work, got crushed lel
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On March 06 2014 10:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 06:40 Ketara wrote:
There are still lots of champions in the game who have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management during laning. This just represents a difference in philosophy. For my part, I see no reason why it should not be the case that all mana using chaps have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management for the entire game. Not just laning. The resource is there, so there's zero reason that, by design, those champs should not demand the skill-intensive component of the mechanic for the entire game. From a design standpoint I just don't really see why this should not be the case. Put differently, your standpoint is: "There are still champs that have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management so this is fine." Whereas mine is closer to: "There exist mana using champs that don't have prohibitive mana costs and don't require significant mana management and this is a problem."
I doubt you would be capable of finding a mana using champion that doesn't require some form of mana management at some point in the game. Some are more constrained than others, obviously.
There's an obvious reason why the games design is such that a champions mana usage becomes less of an issue outside laning. It's because the game designers want the player to be more concerned with correct positioning and teamfighting across the entire map later in the game, and less concerned with the smaller issues they have to worry about during laning.
The better question would be, if we have a champion whose mana costs remain prohibitive throughout the game, why are we doing that? How does this improve the game? There are champions whose mana costs remain prohibitive throughout the game, but on the whole it seems fairly obvious that Riot is trying to do away with that. Which I know you guys don't like, but I cannot for the life of me understand why.
It makes the champion more difficult to play, to be sure, but making things more difficult doesn't automatically make the game better.
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On March 06 2014 10:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 06:40 Ketara wrote:
There are still lots of champions in the game who have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management during laning. This just represents a difference in philosophy. For my part, I see no reason why it should not be the case that all mana using chaps have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management for the entire game. Not just laning. The resource is there, so there's zero reason that, by design, those champs should not demand the skill-intensive component of the mechanic for the entire game. From a design standpoint I just don't really see why this should not be the case. Put differently, your standpoint is: "There are still champs that have prohibitive mana costs and require mana management so this is fine." Whereas mine is closer to: "There exist mana using champs that don't have prohibitive mana costs and don't require significant mana management and this is a problem."
Hm.
I'm not sure about others, but if I buy no mana regen items for a mana-based champion, I definitely do feel the lack of mana, and this happens a lot. In fact so much that I either cannot farm lanes freely or need to base frequently if I cannot get blue.
If you get mana items that's a different thing altogether, of course. However, if we compare to DotA and if you get a Bloodstone, you seriously need to do no mana management either.
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Bloodstone without a lot of stacks does not compare to athene's
and on top of that Bloodstone is a shit item outside of the mana regen unlike athenes.
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If the endpoint of this discussion is that Athenes is an overpowered item, I'd agree.
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it's not Yango's I don't think but the attempt to cite Bloodstone warrented a shut down (Athene's I agree is OP to the point where it spoils mid viable hero/item options though)
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United States47024 Posts
On March 06 2014 10:38 Ketara wrote:
There's an obvious reason why the games design is such that a champions mana usage becomes less of an issue outside laning. It's because the game designers want the player to be more concerned with correct positioning and teamfighting across the entire map later in the game, and less concerned with the smaller issues they have to worry about during laning.
If this is the case then why does Energy even exist? It exists SOLELY as a short-term constrained resource precisely of the kind you're saying Riot wants players to be less concerned with.
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The issue is they can't nerf Athenes to an appropriate level because if they did there's an entire set of older champions that would become completely unplayable, and this includes current popular, competitive champions.
If they fixed the mana costs of older champions (like they've been doing, slowly but steadily) to make them more on line with the newer champions, they could then gut Athenes and the game would be better for it, IMO.
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On March 06 2014 11:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 10:38 Ketara wrote:
There's an obvious reason why the games design is such that a champions mana usage becomes less of an issue outside laning. It's because the game designers want the player to be more concerned with correct positioning and teamfighting across the entire map later in the game, and less concerned with the smaller issues they have to worry about during laning. If this is the case then why does Energy even exist? It exists SOLELY as a short-term constrained resource precisely of the kind you're saying Riot wants players to be less concerned with.
I think energy is a pretty stupid mechanic.
There aren't many champions that use it too. Zed most recent one, and he was a season 2 champ.
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On March 06 2014 10:54 Ketara wrote:
If the endpoint of this discussion is that Athenes is an overpowered item, I'd agree.
Well I agree that it's an overpowered item as a whole in that it does too much in addition to mana regen.
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On March 06 2014 11:05 Ketara wrote:
The issue is they can't nerf Athenes to an appropriate level because if they did there's an entire set of older champions that would become completely unplayable, and this includes current popular, competitive champions.
If they fixed the mana costs of older champions (like they've been doing, slowly but steadily) to make them more on line with the newer champions, they could then gut Athenes and the game would be better for it, IMO.
removing right click farming from mid lane by level 6 removes a great deal of skill from the game, and it's not just a "last hitting is hard lol" argument, having to right click farm forces you to be inside of ability range of your opponent far more than currently is the case.
I hate to branch the argument but I simply can't accept that large athene's nerfs wouldn't be good for the game even with heros as is.
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It depends on how important to you as the game owner it is to keep all those Anivia mains from quitting.
If you remember, they tried to nerf Athenes at the beginning of season 3, and ended up more or less reverting the nerfs.
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United States47024 Posts
What ultimately results from this is simply a design space that Riot is unwilling, or, by their own design rules, unable, to explore. Consider the various combinations of short and long-term resource gated champs:
Resourceless - short-term unlimited, long-term unlimited
Energy - short-term gated, long-term unlimited
Mana - short-term unlimited, long-term gated
On paper, resourceless is "unfair" by virtue of being unlimited in both regards, but in practice is balanced by having skill power/cooldowns tuned to account for this.
The niche that those older champions that are both short- and long-term mana gated is supposed to be the fourth category, but Riot seems to adamantly refuse to design around this. Tuning down mana costs like this essentially pushes champions into the "short-term unlimited, long-term gated" group which they seem to intend for mana to be, but they have not produced an additional resource type nor designed any of the mana users to fit into the potential fourth category.
There's no reason this category couldn't exist, and it arguably has on certain champs in the past. It's a dimension of resource management that offers different gameplay from the other three--not necessarily more or less difficult to play--but Riot seems to shy away from it, possibly due to the need to up-scale skill power to compensate, but I don't see why. It's a different dimension of gameplay that deserves to be explored.
You have to bear in mind that a lot of the older heavily mana-gated champs that were both short- and long-term mana gated were still competitively relevant until Riot tuned down the strength of their skills--when more powerful skills are supposed to be the balancing factor for an inferior resource management scheme. It's not that such a resource management scheme makes those champs unplayable--it's that Riot doesn't want to provide the adequate compensation to MAKE them playable, and I don't see why.
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thats not a lot of players in my experence lol (also her mana costs were all 2014'd a couple patches ago) and her base damage is bonkers so even if you made Athene's a mana regen exclusive item she could hang (probaly better than she can now because it's a substantial nerf other shovers)
they did not revert the Athene's nerfs at the start of s3, they reduced the ap to what it is now, and people took a step back, realised it was still OP and dove back in.
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Baa?21248 Posts
I watched Kaceytron stream for 30 minutes, it was magical.
She needs an Oscar.
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On March 06 2014 11:10 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 10:54 Ketara wrote:
If the endpoint of this discussion is that Athenes is an overpowered item, I'd agree. Well I agree that it's an overpowered item as a whole in that it does too much in addition to mana regen.
and the 20% CDR
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On March 06 2014 11:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I watched Kaceytron stream for 30 minutes, it was magical.
She needs an Oscar.
I actually respect her level of trolling.....its actually perfect and props to her tbh
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I used Anivia as an example, but I hope you see what I mean.
There are champions right now that basically have to buy Athenes as their first item or you can't play them. That's a problem. The entire point of having items in the game is to give meaningful choices to the player, so if there's no choice in what to buy, there's a game design issue there.
And it's not a problem with the item. It's a problem with the champions. If you fix the problem with those champions, you can then fine tune the item and make things more balanced for everyone.
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EPT
