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On March 04 2014 21:53 739 wrote:
Guys quick question? Good/bad/terribad matchups for Darius top? Even lane against? Which champ does Darius rape and which champ does rape Darius badly? We're talking about similar skill.
In isolation, I'm pretty sure Darius beats all melee matchups that don't have options to farm from range.
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Basically from my Darius experience, Darius's worst match-up is hands down Kennen. Xin Zhao is also a very difficult match up. Trundle can also be difficult if he kills you early. (Which can happen quite easily) Those are the "difficult" match ups in my opinion. Everything else you can play against provided you play correctly.
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Can't Darius just wreck Xin but kiting with his passive MS and just refresh the DoT for tons of damage after the knock-up wears off? Or are Xin's base damage too high?
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On March 05 2014 01:35 Alaric wrote:
Can't Darius just wreck Xin but kiting with his passive MS and just refresh the DoT for tons of damage after the knock-up wears off? Or are Xin's base damage too high?
My problem against Xin is that he's got too much sustain (At least when compared to Darius, Darius has no sustain unless he buys a life-steal item. But most importantly, Xin's dash makes it very hard to hit him with a sweet-spot Decimate. Because the problem is, when you go to harass him, he'll just go in on you and then you'll likely only hit him with the shaft of your decimate which does quite a bit less damage than the edge. And then once he's on you, he can just stick to you like glue because Darius has no escapes.
Like I think if the engagement went on for long enough I think it'd eventually go in Darius's favor, but I feel that Xin can just straight up kill you before the fight goes on that long. Also this is all assuming that Darius and Xin have equal items. If Darius gets a gank or something and gets ahead, then yeah I think he can just crush Xin.
This might not be entirely accurate, but this is just my experience of the match-up.
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Doesn't this assume that Xin plays very aggressive, though? At least from my own experience, Darius players don't hesitate to just Q you whenever you go in to last it for the blade hit, not caring if they push the wave. Since I won't win trades with my usual top laners (Olaf, Jax, also Irelia at the time of his release) I can't jump in when he runs up to me (they often just run past the wave to try and zone me, regardless of whether they warded or not) and that's how I take a lot of harass or end up under the tower with a huge wave as his Q denies last hits hard.
Do you play him differently, trying to zone over Q and push, or is it Xin players going on you as soon as you try to get in range, even if you do it as soon as they try to take a last hit?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 05 2014 01:33 Frudgey wrote:
Basically from my Darius experience, Darius's worst match-up is hands down Kennen. Xin Zhao is also a very difficult match up. Trundle can also be difficult if he kills you early. (Which can happen quite easily) Those are the "difficult" match ups in my opinion. Everything else you can play against provided you play correctly.
What about Kayle? I always feel as though as Kayle, I have the advantage but am on an absolute razor's edge.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
As an ADC up against Vi, Zed, or someone similar: is it stupid to build Zhonya's as your defensive item? For some ADCs, the AP isn't totally wasted (e.g., Ezreal), and more importantly, Zhonya's has a much, much lower cooldown than Guardian Angel.
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From my experience as Darius (been a while, keep in mind), Kayle is skill based. If you ever get to go in on her with a pull or a couple good Qs, you shove her out and snowball super hard. However, if she positions well and zones right, you'll never touch her and sit under tower.
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On March 05 2014 02:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:
As an ADC up against Vi, Zed, or someone similar: is it stupid to build Zhonya's as your defensive item? For some ADCs, the AP isn't totally wasted (e.g., Ezreal), and more importantly, Zhonya's has a much, much lower cooldown than Guardian Angel.
QSS is pretty ok isn't it?
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On March 05 2014 01:54 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Doesn't this assume that Xin plays very aggressive, though? At least from my own experience, Darius players don't hesitate to just Q you whenever you go in to last it for the blade hit, not caring if they push the wave. Since I won't win trades with my usual top laners (Olaf, Jax, also Irelia at the time of his release) I can't jump in when he runs up to me (they often just run past the wave to try and zone me, regardless of whether they warded or not) and that's how I take a lot of harass or end up under the tower with a huge wave as his Q denies last hits hard.
Do you play him differently, trying to zone over Q and push, or is it Xin players going on you as soon as you try to get in range, even if you do it as soon as they try to take a last hit?
When I do play Darius, I do what you describe, just Q them whenever the go for last hits. Although with my experience, at least when going against Xin, he usually jumps me before I get the chance to Q him. I think his dash has a range of 600 units where Decimate has a range of 425, so Xin is usually the one who initiates on me.
As for harassing him goes, I feel like that every time I do Q him he'll go in on that anyways. And then even then, he has enough sustain that Q's do hurt him, but probably don't do as much damage as I'd like.
Of course that being said, I admit that I haven't played a lot of Darius versus Xin, so I could be spewing out a lot of things that aren't true. If I get the chance to play the match more, I'll come back here and report my findings.
Kayle's only a hard match-up if you're afraid of her. If you pull her as soon as she auto attacks you once, you should win trades. Also keep in mind that Darius's apprehend has a longer range than Kayle's ranged auto attacks, so if she attacks you apprehend her. That being said, it still is a skill match-up.
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Are we really
Discussing Darius v xin? First off when do you see a xin top and second Darius destroys him
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On March 05 2014 02:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:
As an ADC up against Vi, Zed, or someone similar: is it stupid to build Zhonya's as your defensive item? For some ADCs, the AP isn't totally wasted (e.g., Ezreal), and more importantly, Zhonya's has a much, much lower cooldown than Guardian Angel.
vi and zed are dissimilar and zhonyas is undesirable as an adc versus either. the answer to zed is qss, and divers like vi/malphite are dealt with through proper positioning, although frankly a vi that really wants to ult the adc is probably going to manage it every time (if i remember correctly, game 3 of najin v kt masters is a good example of this). nevertheless, the utility of zhonyas does not justify the expense, and i would suggest banshee's veil in the current meta as the go-to defensive item for adcs
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On March 05 2014 02:11 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 01:54 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Doesn't this assume that Xin plays very aggressive, though? At least from my own experience, Darius players don't hesitate to just Q you whenever you go in to last it for the blade hit, not caring if they push the wave. Since I won't win trades with my usual top laners (Olaf, Jax, also Irelia at the time of his release) I can't jump in when he runs up to me (they often just run past the wave to try and zone me, regardless of whether they warded or not) and that's how I take a lot of harass or end up under the tower with a huge wave as his Q denies last hits hard.
Do you play him differently, trying to zone over Q and push, or is it Xin players going on you as soon as you try to get in range, even if you do it as soon as they try to take a last hit? When I do play Darius, I do what you describe, just Q them whenever the go for last hits. Although with my experience, at least when going against Xin, he usually jumps me before I get the chance to Q him. I think his dash has a range of 600 units where Decimate has a range of 425, so Xin is usually the one who initiates on me. As for harassing him goes, I feel like that every time I do Q him he'll go in on that anyways. And then even then, he has enough sustain that Q's do hurt him, but probably don't do as much damage as I'd like. Of course that being said, I admit that I haven't played a lot of Darius versus Xin, so I could be spewing out a lot of things that aren't true. If I get the chance to play the match more, I'll come back here and report my findings. Kayle's only a hard match-up if you're afraid of her. If you pull her as soon as she auto attacks you once, you should win trades. Also keep in mind that Darius's apprehend has a longer range than Kayle's ranged auto attacks, so if she attacks you apprehend her. That being said, it still is a skill match-up.
And then you run into assholes like me who max Q on Kayle and don't auto during trades.
650 range on Q vs 540 range on Apprehend. And that Q HURTS. Granted, it would be harder after the nerfs to force Darius out if he has a lot of potions, but once he's under half Kayle can still all-in really hard on him.
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On March 05 2014 02:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:
As an ADC up against Vi, Zed, or someone similar: is it stupid to build Zhonya's as your defensive item? For some ADCs, the AP isn't totally wasted (e.g., Ezreal), and more importantly, Zhonya's has a much, much lower cooldown than Guardian Angel.
Qss vs zed, bveil against burst mage (leblanc), qss against hard cc initiate, ga if you're going to die no matter what other shenanigans you try to do.
Generally it'd all based on how well your team can peel for you vs how well they dive you.
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On March 05 2014 00:45 cLutZ wrote:
Ashe support fundamentally misunderstands why Ashe ADC is useful. Its like Gragas, Orianna, Lux, Kayle, etc at support, which fundamentally misunderstands the strength of those champions, which is providing utility alongside damage. Now, the new FF might change the ability of supports to bring damage, but there isn't even an AD upgrade for it now, so you aren't even going to get moderate scaling for your Ashe support.
Kayle support was actually played at the pro level recently. Once, anyway.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Pls, everyone knows AP Ashe provides bigger burst with her insane arrow damage.
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Baa?21248 Posts
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Void staff for burst with arrow and shiv crit?
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Tristana support
60% slow for 2.5 seconds that resets on assist
5s healing reduction with fat base damage
1000unit 200 aoe knockback with 1.5 ap ratio
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Frozen mallet. Don't forget frozen mallet.
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EPT
