EPTedit: Actually, it procs the gold part so I think it should proc the damage too. Frostfang seems way better on her since you can easily use your stacks by Q-spawning plants in their face.
[Patch 4.3] Vel'Koz General Discussion - Page 26
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
edit: Actually, it procs the gold part so I think it should proc the damage too. Frostfang seems way better on her since you can easily use your stacks by Q-spawning plants in their face. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:16 Inflicted_ wrote: Does Zyra's plants' AAs proc the damage portion of Frostfang? edit: Actually, it procs the gold part so I think it should proc the damage too. Frostfang seems way better on her since you can easily use your stacks by Q-spawning plants in their face. How do you avoid accidentally killing minions with all those AOEs? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:30 AsianEcksDragon wrote: How do you avoid accidentally killing minions with all those AOEs? By sitting infront of baron and spamming /all 1v1 me, bro! | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:19 AsianEcksDragon wrote: This patch has made Lulu even better. She's still really strong at mid and doran's shield nerf is going to hurt melee assassins. Frostfang buff now make her auto even more deadly than an ADC at bottom, and she's the #1 counter to Leona and Thresh. She's also viable top and has no problem against melee bruisers like Renekton. I believe Lulu is the best champion in the game now. i went fiora vs mid lulu once, was most obnoxious and retarded thing ever, didnt want to play fiora again after that | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:19 AsianEcksDragon wrote: This patch has made Lulu even better. She's still really strong at mid and doran's shield nerf is going to hurt melee assassins. Frostfang buff now make her auto even more deadly than an ADC at bottom, and she's the #1 counter to Leona and Thresh. She's also viable top and has no problem against melee bruisers like Renekton. I believe Lulu is the best champion in the game now. I have literally played Lulu once in my entire time in league (can't get into the yordle champs at all), so noob Lulu question: Why does she counter Thresh and Leona? I have no idea how Lulu works so I'm just curios. EDIT: Wriggles upgrade http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/02/228-pbe-update-2.html Feral Flare Transforms from Wriggle's Lantern after 25 large monsters killed with Maim. +20 Attack Damage +35% Attack Speed UNIQUE Passive - Maim: Basic attacks deal 100 ( + 3 per kill/assist/large monster kill ) magic damage (33% against champions) and heal 12 ( + 1 per kill/assist/large monster kill ) on hit. This damage and heal is increased by kills, assists and large monster kills. UNIQUE Passive: Gain 30% increased Gold from monsters. UNIQUE Active: Places a Stealth Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 180 seconds (180 second cooldown) Limited to 1 Gold Income item Looks.... interesting. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On March 01 2014 16:25 JazzVortical wrote: I have literally played Lulu once in my entire time in league (can't get into the yordle champs at all), so noob Lulu question: Why does she counter Thresh and Leona? I have no idea how Lulu works so I'm just curios. EDIT: Wriggles upgrade http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/02/228-pbe-update-2.html Looks.... interesting. Damnit Riot, give me at least a day... | ||
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
All trinkets can not be used for the first 120 seconds ( up from 90 ) and selling a trinket disables trinket use for 120 seconds ( down from 180 ) Probably will make spotting/deciding for 1v2s harder | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On March 01 2014 17:04 Inflicted_ wrote: Trinket change is really impactful too Probably will make spotting/deciding for 1v2s harder And hopefully give us interesting level 1s again. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I mean, first you have to clear 25 camps before it upgrades. That's over 7 full clears... Then in order for it to out-perform Elder Lizard at level 18 hit-for-hit, you have to stack it another ~25+ times, which is pretty absurd unless it's a high kill game and you have high kill participation. Quick math assuming no armor/magic resist. Level 18 Auto with Elder Lizard deals 30 (AD on item)+14+36 (burning effect) = 80 damage Level 18 Auto with Feral Flare (0 stacks) deals 20 (AD on item)+ 33 = 53 damage So you need 27 stacks to reach Elder Lizard level. Granted, FF proc is per hit, while Elder Lizard is over 2 seconds. But, Elder Lizard procs on any source of physical damage AND is true damage, whereas FF proc is only on autos and is magic damage. I did leave out the healing portion of it, however. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On March 01 2014 17:28 Ryuu314 wrote: Eh. I think Wriggles/Feral Flare still sucks. The amount of stacking you have to do for it in order for it to actually be meaningful against enemies is not worth it. I mean, first you have to clear 25 camps before it upgrades. That's over 7 full clears... Then in order for it to out-perform Elder Lizard at level 18 hit-for-hit, you have to stack it another ~25+ times, which is pretty absurd unless it's a high kill game and you have high kill participation. Quick math assuming no armor/magic resist. Level 18 Auto with Elder Lizard deals 30 (AD on item)+14+36 (burning effect) = 80 damage Level 18 Auto with Feral Flare (0 stacks) deals 20 (AD on item)+ 33 = 53 damage So you need 27 stacks to reach Elder Lizard level. Granted, FF proc is per hit, while Elder Lizard is over 2 seconds. But, Elder Lizard procs on any source of physical damage AND is true damage, whereas FF proc is only on autos and is magic damage. I did leave out the healing portion of it, however. What about the comparative clearing speed of Madred vs. Spirit Stone? It's 60 bonus damage & +15% AS vs. 20% higher damage iirc. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On March 01 2014 18:06 GolemMadness wrote: Wriggles still looks like crap. I don't really get why they're trying to push an item designed to make you sit around in the jungle and farm all day. because it would be nice if you didnt have to play early game junglers to compete just because map pressure and kills >>> everything. if we started seeing more jungle variety because farming jungle is so good that dying teammates isn't too bad then that's only a good thing. seeing junglers get behind and then be useless all game because the other is ahead is annoying. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On March 01 2014 16:25 JazzVortical wrote: I have literally played Lulu once in my entire time in league (can't get into the yordle champs at all), so noob Lulu question: Why does she counter Thresh and Leona? I have no idea how Lulu works so I'm just curios. EDIT: Wriggles upgrade http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/02/228-pbe-update-2.html Looks.... interesting. Leona and Thresh are all-in supports. Lulu has a excellent disengage, probably the best among champions not named Janna or Nami. However, even if they don't engage, Lulu can still poke and autoattack them. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On March 01 2014 17:28 Ryuu314 wrote: Eh. I think Wriggles/Feral Flare still sucks. The amount of stacking you have to do for it in order for it to actually be meaningful against enemies is not worth it. I mean, first you have to clear 25 camps before it upgrades. That's over 7 full clears... Then in order for it to out-perform Elder Lizard at level 18 hit-for-hit, you have to stack it another ~25+ times, which is pretty absurd unless it's a high kill game and you have high kill participation. Quick math assuming no armor/magic resist. Level 18 Auto with Elder Lizard deals 30 (AD on item)+14+36 (burning effect) = 80 damage Level 18 Auto with Feral Flare (0 stacks) deals 20 (AD on item)+ 33 = 53 damage So you need 27 stacks to reach Elder Lizard level. Granted, FF proc is per hit, while Elder Lizard is over 2 seconds. But, Elder Lizard procs on any source of physical damage AND is true damage, whereas FF proc is only on autos and is magic damage. I did leave out the healing portion of it, however. Ignores attack speed on Flare + Lizard damage ticks being eaten by refresh. Anyway, updating thread now... | ||
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
Right now, on junglers like Yi, it's better to stay on Machete or get Madred then go straight into your build. Because your AS is usually high (from botrk/shiv+ult), you don't fully benefit from the burn aspect of Lizard. Adding 33+ damage to every AA will be pretty strong on him. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 01 2014 19:14 Gahlo wrote: Ignores attack speed on Flare + Lizard damage ticks being eaten by refresh. Anyway, updating thread now... I specifically said I was comparing on a hit by hit basis. Obviously, if you're looking at sustained damage when your target is sitting still and you're just wailing away with auto attacks, it'll take less stacks for FF to outperform Elder Lizard. Even then, I don't see FF outperforming Elder Lizard in terms of damage in a realistic fighting scenario unless you have 10~15+ stacks, which is still significant. The fact that Elder Lizard burn is true damage, while FF proc is magic is a pretty big deal. On March 01 2014 18:07 AsianEcksDragon wrote: What about the comparative clearing speed of Madred vs. Spirit Stone? It's 60 bonus damage & +15% AS vs. 20% higher damage iirc. From a quick glance, I'm pretty sure Wriggles and all the items along its build path clear faster than Spirit Stone. But that's entirely by design. Wriggle's build path was designed to be the afk jungle farming path, so it makes sense that it'll likely clear jungle faster. However, it's honestly pretty hard to fully take advantage of the increased clear speed since the introduction of the Wight camp means that you're virtually never going to have an entirely cleared jungle. Your movement time between camps becomes the limiting factor, not how fast you actually kill the camps. Additionally, the question becomes whether the marginally increased clear speed is worth losing the hp/mana sustain of Spirit Stone. (Personally I don't think so). Gold generation wise, I believe it was math'd out at the start of season 4 that Wriggle's doesn't significantly out-perform Spirit Stone items unless you're afk jungle farming really really hard. On March 01 2014 19:19 Inflicted_ wrote: Feral Flame isn't meant to replace or be better than Elder Lizard. It's for the auto-attacking champions who don't really benefit from the passive of Lizard. Right now, on junglers like Yi, it's better to stay on Machete or get Madred then go straight into your build. Because your AS is usually high (from botrk/shiv+ult), you don't fully benefit from the burn aspect of Lizard. Adding 33+ damage to every AA will be pretty strong on him. Sure, but none of the current junglers are auto-attacking junglers like Yi. Those types of junglers are by and large inferior to the current fotm junglers for reasons outside of lack of itemization and I highly doubt the introduction of Feral Flare is going to change that. The item simply is not that strong (on paper anyways). Ultimately, I think the biggest issue with Wriggle's/Feral Flare is that what the item is designed to do is contrary to the function of the role it's designed for. At the highest level of play, junglers simply aren't expected to be able to sit in the jungle and farm their camps. They have to assist their lanes and control objectives. The biggest drawback I see to the FF item is that fact that you need to clear 25 camps before you can even get the darn item and start stacking up its damage. If you could just straight upgrade Wriggle's to FF for X gold, then it might be a reasonably good buy even on gankers since it stacks off of kills/assists as well. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
I get that it doesn't really fit into the current top level meta of ganking junglers, but maybe a part of the reason why the meta is like that is because of the lack of items geared towards farming carry junglers. The idea that riot shouldn't even try creating itemisation for junglers who want to farm more then gank is a bit circular... "That village will have no use for your fishing rod, they're all hunters and never fish because they've never had fishing rods so you should get them a spear or something for hunting." | ||
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