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On January 08 2014 11:29 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 11:11 Nos- wrote:
I'm rather interested to why Korean players refuse to play Jinx/Ziggs. I think they're both incredibly strong but have seen little to no play. Monte apparently talked to Nalra/CT and their answer was that Korean teams really dislike Jinx's lack of escape but I honestly think her other strengths make up for it. The Korean casters didn't comment on Ziggs though. I think it's moreso that they don't have to play ziggs than them refusing to. Right now mids play nidalee, orianna, gragas, and kassadin for the most part with a few fringe picks. Ziggs isn't necessarily stronger than those picks so I don't see much reason to practice him when you got all those other champs to choose from. Also, all these picks have really big playmaking abilities. Ziggs comparitively doesn't .
Ziggs has a comparatively tricky skillshot (dodging wise) that does aoe damage with Q, a long range wave clear/zoning skill in minefield that lasts quite a long time, and an ultimate that can be used to clear waves in other lanes. When used well his W can be used to setup more poke or disengage. His damage is also pretty damn high with an obnoxious slow on his minefield, not to mention his strong laning phase with his passive. I think people are underplaying Ziggs' power at the current patch.
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On January 08 2014 11:32 LaNague wrote:
i just said that IF they want to nerf lanejerks, they should nerf zigs instead of renekton. -.-
u guys so silly
Nah, they need to fix toplane and the jungle (to a lesser extent) before they can even figure out what kind of changes are needed elsewhere on the map.
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dunno what is there to fix. the game is fantastic atm. top lane is dominated by bruisers instead of the crap we had some time ago with jayce, elise, zed, kha, ryze. vlad. who just waveclear and poke all day. keep that stuff to midlane. In the jungle you see a healthy variety of playstyles and champs just as it should be.
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According to Xpecial Vlog:
New patch soon.
LCS week 1 will be on Yasuo patch, Rengar still disabled.
Also, he likes LA, LA is cool.
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On January 08 2014 11:04 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:56 Scip wrote:
personal experience is still better than shitty claims that aren't supported with no theory no experience no NOTHING. No, he cited OGN. Obv if it isn't played in Korea, it's not OP.
aatrox, volibear, nasus, khazix,jayce,aatrox werent played in korea they were popularised by diamondprox/soaz first, similar with annie support which was started by chinese teams
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On January 08 2014 11:48 clickrush wrote:
dunno what is there to fix. the game is fantastic atm. top lane is dominated by bruisers instead of the crap we had some time ago with jayce, elise, zed, kha, ryze. vlad. who just waveclear and poke all day. keep that stuff to midlane. In the jungle you see a healthy variety of playstyles and champs just as it should be.
Can't tell if serious...
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Mundo, Rengar, Shyvana, and Renekton very low poke and risky champions.
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On January 08 2014 10:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:32 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 08 2014 10:10 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 08 2014 10:08 Scip wrote:
Lol, I have yet to see an ADC outdamage ziggs
what is your theorycraft Csheep because it sure as heck doesn't seem reflect how d1 euw games go we've long established eu doesnt know how to play this game scip pls #murica #cloudtsm please stop bringing personal experience + Show Spoiler + up as proof ty Nice deflection. its always a stupid point to bring up personal experience to justify something anyways so there wasnt much left to do beyond respond facetiously to inflate my post count
Dude
You say:
he also cannot, despite the assertions of some people who dont know hwo to play this game, outdamage a competent adc
and back it up with *absolutely nothing*
just because you disagree with someone or can find a way to attack it, it doesn't mean that what you are saying is suddenly valid
attacking people is stupidly easy but doesn't make you any more correct
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Ya, Mundo shitty poke.
I don't even max W when jungling him, I stop after 2-3 levels to get Q maxed asap.
On January 08 2014 10:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:03 Alaric wrote:
Ziggs' minefield cd should be nerfed a bit though, if only because at high amounts of CDR (close to max) he can maintain a minefield with 100% uptime (save for the animation). Since a field won't ever be fully cleared, even by someone buffed by Black Shield, it's really strong zone control. anivia can maintain ult with 100% uptime too lets nerf her cassiopeia can maintain w with 100% uptime with like 20% cdr too lets nerf her too
What incentive do they have to build CDR, really? Also not like Cass takes a good 3-4s going from base radius to max radius for her W zone. And I'm not the one whom to send an ironic "let's nerf Anivia toward"  (worst case I get a grammar lesson out of this so it's a win-win).
I mean that's pretty hypocrit after criticising Ketara for specific and unrealistic cases based on goofy item builds.
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I honestly like this version of the game champion wise, items could use some changes, and I still feel passive gold is too high.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I agree with scrubtastic, I used to think you were this rainbow knight of this forum, defending us from terribads by either whiteknighting the right person or trashing the other, but lately you just seem to lash like a rabid dog without actually being right about things. Being right about things was the part that made you the best. t.t
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You know that won't make Teut jealous.
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Eh, Roffles' cancer had to go somewhere. It's the law of conservation of energy, except rofflescancer. I'm sure Cheep can find a way to expel it onto someone else.
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Perhaps what it really is is a cancer ghost that is possessing otherwise respectable forum goers. A cancergeist, if you will.
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On January 08 2014 12:19 Ketara wrote:
Perhaps what it really is is a cancer ghost that is possessing otherwise respectable forum goers. A cancergeist, if you will.
the spooky ghost of release xin zhao
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Baa?21247 Posts
On January 08 2014 11:11 Scip wrote:
He did not cite OGN. He said it's barely picked in OGN, which says next to nothing about the average damage dealt you can expect from ziggs.
go find me an ogn game where ziggs outdamages the ADC on a winning team in terms of enemy to champions, im almost certain it does not exist but i am willing to cede tha tmaybe sometimes they do -equal- damage
as an aside koreans are better at drafting and they tend to draft ziggs only when it fits with the specific comp and strategy that they're running instead of straight up drafting meta picks like na and eu tend to do, so cases where ziggs does appear and win it is usually because there was a somewhat well thought out plan behind it. na and eu, based on what i have seen (admittedly limited, but lets be real, challenger teams are boring as fuck to watch and there have been no real competitive tourneys in ages) kind of just draft whatever is strong with bare minimal consideration of team comp
ziggs is only popular right now because of the massive pull back away from straight diving assassins and the shift towards a combination of poke, split push, and zone control and anti initiation, in addition to the fact that he does what he does well, and all those things happen to be prized right now
when stuff like zed and kass are drafted they play a much more extended team fight style as opposed to a relying on early pick style that we saw previously, as a function of s4 changes
adcs are still viewed as the single biggest threat (rightly so) and teams with straight diving assassins tend to go for ADCs, since they have lower effective range than ziggs while doing more damage (vast majority of the time, otherwise around equal), so ADCs are chased around in fights more than ziggs (which might account for a seeming lower amount of damage they do, because they are, usually, under much more pressure)
as stuff like khazix mid and jungle makes a resurgence, which i believe we are seeing/going to see very soon, we will see straight dive teams becoming more common, and in those cases ziggs falls out of favor. this is recognized in korea and therefore ziggs does not enjoy the same favor there as he does in na and eu, because champions like orianna and gragas are better suited than he is in dealing with teamfight situations involving multiple high mobility high damage assassins
in addition, heroes like zed, orianna, and gragas are very strong against ziggs in lane, and ziggs does not come close to autowinning any lane - in fact, ziggs has one of the lowest kill threats of all the heroes in the game in a laning situation, his only true strength is team fighting. this does contribute, once again, to his recent popularity - s4 changes have made laning less of a 100% accurate decider, and large scale, 4-5 item team fights between even teams are happening more, and in those situations ziggs is obviously strong
kass is the only one that ziggs straight up beats in lane, and he has the upside of being able to completely decimate ziggs later on, both in a 1v1 situation and in a 2v2 situations. usually kass can threaten kills the moment he hits 6 no matter hwo much cs he has ceded because not enough of a difference can be built up through only 6 levels of farming, and the silence demolishes ziggs while the ult + flash can dodge anywhere from 1-3 of ziggs' crucial spells
none of this is persuasive of ziggs needing a nerf, because the assertions being tossed out are
1. he always wins lane
2. he does more damage than everyone
neither of which are true. 1 is patently false vs popular mids (if you're gonna play a shitty non meta mid and lose lane to a super strong hero in the current patch you garner no sympathy) 2 is irrelevant because i am not convinced that is is actually true (no your solo q games dont count) and even if it were sometimes not a patently absurd claim, mitigating factors that i have listed out do have to be taken into consideration
also nidalee can one shot someone from a screen away ziggs cant do that if any mid hero needs to be nerfed nidalee does
On January 08 2014 12:14 Scip wrote:
I agree with scrubtastic, I used to think you were this rainbow knight of this forum, defending us from terribads by either whiteknighting the right person or trashing the other, but lately you just seem to lash like a rabid dog without actually being right about things. Being right about things was the part that made you the best. t.t
im still right
On January 08 2014 12:07 Alaric wrote:Ya, Mundo shitty poke. I don't even max W when jungling him, I stop after 2-3 levels to get Q maxed asap. Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 08 2014 10:03 Alaric wrote:
Ziggs' minefield cd should be nerfed a bit though, if only because at high amounts of CDR (close to max) he can maintain a minefield with 100% uptime (save for the animation). Since a field won't ever be fully cleared, even by someone buffed by Black Shield, it's really strong zone control. anivia can maintain ult with 100% uptime too lets nerf her cassiopeia can maintain w with 100% uptime with like 20% cdr too lets nerf her too What incentive do they have to build CDR, really? Also not like Cass takes a good 3-4s going from base radius to max radius for her W zone. And I'm not the one whom to send an ironic "let's nerf Anivia toward" (worst case I get a grammar lesson out of this so it's a win-win). I mean that's pretty hypocrit after criticising Ketara for specific and unrealistic cases based on goofy item builds.
ziggs institutionally builds a grail, he hardly stacks cdr
half the time grail isnt even the best choice (despite the fact it seems everyone auto builds a grail on ziggs which i think is dumb)
especially if there are zeds or khazixs running around
so no ziggs doesnt regularly max cdr either so i dont see your point
+ Show Spoiler +i'm not one to whom an ironic "let's nerf anivia" should be sent toward
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Why talk about total damage dealt to champions? Not all damage is the same. Its like if you tracked "Time Rooting Enemy Champions" your team's Cait would probably outscore your teams, for instance, Morgana, Maokia, or Leona, but thats just people stepping on traps intentionally.
Like, a Ziggs is going to do more champ damage than a Vayne in laning phase by a lot (because Vayne will be pushing 2v1, or farming 2v2. After that Vayne will be in an empty lane farming more often than said Ziggs who will be incidentally hitting champs while waveclearing.
Vayne is more likely to be able to do damage during an actual fight though, probably.
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Baa?21247 Posts
it's a bad metric but it is ok if you assume that the majority of damage dealt to champions occurs in team fights, when laning has ended and people have more items
as always everything is contextual, obviously a breakdown of who does how much damage to whom at every point of the game would be preferable, but due to practical constraints, approximations would have to suffice
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Well no one measures that.
I mean, maybe there is a mod (why not, there was one in WOW when I played) that would show real time graphs. But WOW had a pretty good combat log, and LOL is not very rigorous technically.
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EPT
