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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
On November 27 2013 18:38 obesechicken13 wrote: Government does this too where they make really unintuitive laws to deal with edge cases. Yango for Glorious Benevolent Dictator. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On November 27 2013 17:16 TheYango wrote: The problem with assists is that they're not well scaled over # of participants. Pre-patch the total assist gold was fixed regardless of the number of contributors. So if it was a 2-person kill it felt like the assist was worth most of the kill, but when you had 5-person teamfight kills, the per-player assist value seemed really low overall. In fact, because of how concentrated blocks of larger amounts of gold are more impactful (since gold in and of itself is meaningless unless it gets you to an item), it felt like 5-person kills were worse than 2-person kills as far as assist value went. Assist streaks go too far in the opposite direction--the base assist value is so low that the overall assist value is too high for 5-person kills compared to 2-person kills. Ideally you want some happy medium where overall assist gold scales appropriately by number of players involved, so that it feels rewarding and not wasteful in all cases. There several reasons for why a game gives players small bonuses along the way, such as gold and buffs: A) to promote behaviour which leads to a win. B) to enforce decisions upon the player. C) to guide the player to a certain way of playing. Those three aspects should be in a balance to make the game as deep as possible. They can often be contradictory to eachother. For Riot C) has almost allways been the most important one (the reason why slot ineffective items are not more costeffective) and they are very good at doing C) and sometimes A). What they lack is B): They are often streamlining champion power curves and making bonuses available to anyone, which ultimately leads to less and less depth, but at the same time it is harder to screw up the game for 1 player with his 1 decision, which is a good thing. I guess they are evaluating the tradeoff and its working well so far. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On November 27 2013 21:06 Shikyo wrote: Oh I completely missed that change to assists. I was wondering what was going on. 8-1-8 with 247 minions is 500g behind 6-3-16 with 221 minions. I guess with the assists giving so much more gold that makes sense... Maybe this means that I should just sacrifice farming and instead run around trying to do teamfights more, assists are so valuable. Also feels kind of dumb because someone like Gangplank can just E and collect all assists automatically without doing anything whereas an assassin might have the time to only kill 1 or 2 targets and his team wins the TF without him getting to touch any of the others for assist, giving that Gangplank more overall gold even if he didn't do anything. It also is really stupid that for killing a feeder who's at like 0-5, the person getting an assist gets the same amount of gold as the one killing even if they barely contribute(assuming they have enough assists over kills). When I was in bronze/silver, I loved playing Sona because I could get so many assists just from using my E around other people. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 27 2013 18:28 TheYango wrote: So, something just occurred to me. Why is it that kill value is based on kill/death streak and not champion level? Riot has already had to implement not one, but TWO band-aid fixes to the system to handle abuses cases (assists partially resetting death streaks to avoid 0/x/y supports being worth no gold to kill, and farming partially resetting death streaks to avoid the feeding split-pusher abuse case), plus there's still the counter-intuitive case where someone who is on a death streak should avoid getting kills because he will reset his gold value (where the intuitive choice is for that player to get kills to have the gold to catch up). Champion level is by far a better indicator than kill/death streak of who is ahead/behind anyway. Given how much they've already had to band-aid the system of kill/death streak to avoid the abuse cases--and how it STILL has counter-intuitive edge cases anyway--it just seems to make more sense to change it entirely. Come now LoL is already more like Dota than Dota is. | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
The weaving line along with devasting strikes (I use hybrid reds) seems to add one helluva lot of damage on him. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 27 2013 18:40 TheYango wrote: Which is why it's funnier when an idealistic politician launches an ideological crusade against it when they're first elected, and then 4 years later they're doing the same shit as everyone else. why would this be funny politicians want to get elected they don't really about care their policies that much you get a good image doing that at the start so its good tactic imo | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On November 27 2013 22:29 Slayer91 wrote: why would this be funny politicians want to get elected they don't really about care their policies that much too much edge for me. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
if we elected league teams based on how much they believe and market themselves/their ideas we'd have shikyo and prinxizor in all the time and then complain that our league teams suck | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 27 2013 17:29 Sponkz wrote: I believe that the biggest issue right now, is that it's rather difficult to close out the game during mid-game unless you're extremely far ahead (think something like 20-3 or similar). Most games I've played in ranked lately, playing when ahead and also when behind, still end up going into 35-40+ minutes, because everyone is stacking wave clear, and even if you don't double targon can help you as well. Games are now decided by factors like late-game positioning when baiting for baron or sieging towers rather than rewarding mid-game team play like in Season 3. 20-3 stomp games happened when you won a lot early game. Those games were usually over by the time midgame came and grouping up and killing everyone off your advantage was more a clean up than teamplay. If anything teamplay is more rewarded because denying jungle farm is better, sieging and baiting baron is harder so you have to come up with good ways to increase your advantage. Baiting baron was hardly a team play move you just buy oracles and sit in the brush and the behind team basically has no real answer for it and sieging is the same as it was but if youre way ahead in gold its easier to force the siege. Lategame happens a lot more but I have no idea why you would think that the team with 10k gold lead still wont win like 80-90% of the games. On November 27 2013 16:28 GTPGlitch wrote: I guess I understand why people are complaining about the game being slower-paced, but I don't understand why anyone doesn't do anything to try and change it. I mean I guess most of this falls on the jungler's shoulders since they have the most impact in terms of game rhythm since most of the time (in silver at least ^^  its 1-1-2 lanes for both teams... But why haven't any new junglers entered the pool of viability. I'm just seeing all the same junglers from s3, just with less ganking because people are sad that the level three timing is gone and decide to just farm the jungle... Why not just pick a different jungler that can gank effectively at level two with a lot of CC, and doesn't need to afk farm jungle to be effective? Just because champs like ali/leona/thresh/blitz (to a lesser extent nami and lulu) were played as supports in s3 doesn't mean they have to be supports in s4. Super frustrating to see like zero innovation with the changes and just people shoehorning old champs into new metas and giving them all shields of infinite money -.-;;/rant Level 3 ganking didn't really get any worse. (1 60 second ward isn't that good, especially if the jungler knows where it is to walk around/wait it out/clear it with sweeper) Level 2 ganking is usually dumb because you just burn their flash and then you are in a big risk area when you are level 2 and their jungler is level 3 with double buffs and he can just invade your jungle. Even if he doesn't the reward for playing an early ganker is the same while the reward for farming is even more. If you try to play Leona/thresh/ali in the jungle you will be the least farmed guy in the game most likely and every time you gank you will die in the 2v2 if the other guy is there because you'll be so behind. Really theres no problems for junglers, junglers got a flat out buff they farm more because its more rewarding. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On November 27 2013 22:31 Slayer91 wrote: im not trying to be edgy I think this is just common sense if we elected league teams based on how much they believe and market themselves/their ideas we'd have shikyo and prinxizor in all the time and then complain that our league teams suck Sounds like the uk with David Cameron at the moment | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Give me your thoughts? | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
I haven't played much this patch, but one of the games was basically that we had a bit of a lead in the midgame, so we gathered and pushed hard. We got a 2-1 when they engaged us, we crushed inner and inhib. You are so strong compared to the towers, much much quicker. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 27 2013 22:49 Alaric wrote: Frankly, it feels more like "if you try ganking and don't get a kill every single time you're very behind" more than a farm to the afk farming. Well, technically that's an indirect buff, but unless I'm Amumu or something and I want to farm till 6 I'm not too sold on it in terms of gold and long term xp. except if your gank puts the laner further ahead than you get behind...? its like you guys are just discovering the whole fundementals of jungling which theres the choice between taking the risk for a gank or taking the safe choice with the farm. It's just been exaggerated with the higher farm reward. On November 27 2013 23:02 Duvon wrote: How hard are people actually pushing, when trying to end games quickly? I haven't played much this patch, but one of the games was basically that we had a bit of a lead in the midgame, so we gathered and pushed hard. We got a 2-1 when they engaged us, we crushed inner and inhib. You are so strong compared to the towers, much much quicker. Pushing towers themselves isn't hard, but its much harder to dive a team that has more gold because you cant as easily get insta kills and fighting under tower gets worse the longer the fight goes because of homeguards and tower damage | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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