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On November 25 2013 19:09 Alaric wrote:
TL;DR: the onus isn't on the team behind to make plays to catch up anymore, they can just stall and try their best to tie each teamfight, and all the gold flung their way means that the lead the enemy team had, however big initially, will eventually not mean anything.
I'm also afraid that once teams figure out how to deny objectives and fights with pressure rather than use their lead to force and win fights, a version making teamfighting so risky because the tiniest blunder destroys everything you carefully built will lead to more "slow death" patterns where you farm the map (and enemy jungle) out for 20 minutes to build up an insurmontable lead, then finish it in an anticlimactic, low risk battle. Choking plays instead of shocking plays.
Well, I agree that it is good that the losing team need not make a great play to catch up. I think the onus should always be on the winning team to keep the snowball rolling.
The problem is that the snowball seems really easy to stop, and not necessarily by making a good play. Like, going 4 for 4 under your inhib tower while still losing the tower, can give you basically enough gold and levels to be even, then the next fight is a coinflip and it comes up heads you have come back from an entire game of misplays.
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United States47024 Posts
Technically, the "healthiest" scenario is where the onus is on the losing team to actually make the play/take the risks to stop the winning team, but where the means to build advantage naturally creates timings and weaknesses for the weaker team to exploit.
Think about how it is in Starcraft--you win a fight, you now have an army strength advantage of a couple units. Inherently, this does not automatically snowball your advantage. You either need to commit to an offense against defender's advantage, or you need to make a decision that weakens your current army strength in a way that develops future army strength (expand, tech). You place the ball in the opponent's court, but you also give them the tools to still get an advantageous fight if they choose to answer at the right time. Map control does not automatically translate into greater advantage without you making some sort of sacrifice along the way.
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Finland33997 Posts
Well, in SC2 you actually are never dead. You can still control all your other units. In LoL your character dies. You cannot do anything while you're dead, so the opponent has free reign.
I guess if LoL had buyback... A gold sink would be needed, if I'm doing great and max my inventory at 35min I've got nothing to show for it at 50.
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On November 25 2013 23:37 TheYango wrote:
Technically, the "healthiest" scenario is where the onus is on the losing team to actually make the play/take the risks to stop the winning team, but where the means to build advantage naturally creates timings and weaknesses for the weaker team to exploit.
Think about how it is in Starcraft--you win a fight, you now have an army strength advantage of a couple units. Inherently, this does not automatically snowball your advantage. You either need to commit to an offense against defender's advantage, or you need to make a decision that weakens your current army strength in a way that develops future army strength (expand, tech). You place the ball in the opponent's court, but you also give them the tools to still get an advantageous fight if they choose to answer at the right time. Map control does not automatically translate into greater advantage without you making some sort of sacrifice along the way.
Is the problem for LoL perhaps that there isn't enough defenders advantage? Prior to like the inhib towers there seems to be very little benefit of being on the defensive when towers are easily sieged.
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I'm hella lost with the new masteries. Am I crazy or does anyone else feel like they don't actually want half of the masteries?
Tell me what I want tl!
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 25 2013 19:28 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 17:04 Scip wrote:On November 25 2013 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
Despite many people's predictions, Eve's popularity and win rate have remained basically the same so far. I wonder if it'll start to pick up once things have settled down a bit and relic's is nerfed. wtf, Evelynn is broken as FUCK there is enough gold in the jungle to build AP and you dont have to worry about anyone buying pinks because they suck and then you can get hyperbuffed spectral wrath for massive sustain, shit's OP I am staggered that her winrates haven't spiked. My first thought would be that that's because more people who never played her before try her out, but if her popularity hasn't spiked that's not the case. Not sure why that is o.o You could build AP before as well...? If the new SotSW were that great, then Fiddlesticks and Amumu would see a huge increase in their win percentage as well. The simple fact is that the sustain it provides isn't that great, and it provides slower clear times than SotEL did for Eve. From the games I've played so far, her early game definitely seems harder. Hitting level 3 later makes your first gank less likely to succeed, your jungle clears are very painful until you get SotSW, and the 10% less CDR hurts Eve probably more than any other jungler. Yes, people are less likely to see you coming for a gank, but if you're not strong enough to kill them, it's not a great trade off.
hahaha
building AP was viable only in extremely specific situations (like some triple-AP comps, something along the lines of Liss+Vlad+Eve, where Eve could be the one to get Abyssal), in general with the lack of levels you would be too squishy to really be able to do anything. Fiddlesticks is so much more awesome as a support than a jungler that no, we wouldn't see a huge winrate spike. Amumu does have some significant problems, one of them could potentially be bad AP ratios (considering all his skills are melee-only), which could correlate with not getting more awesome with the introduction of the new SotSW.
You also might find it interesting the the Spirit of the Spectral Wrath DOES give 10% CDR.
Not sure what setup you are using that you are having trouble earlygame with Eve, I use flat AP quints+blues, flat AD reds and armor yellows, and use 21-9-0 masteries (for specific masteries you can check my lolking profile - SF Scipeaus)
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In offence tree does spell weaving work on physical spells? as in riven Q or similar?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 25 2013 23:48 Shikyo wrote:
Well, in SC2 you actually are never dead. You can still control all your other units. In LoL your character dies. You cannot do anything while you're dead, so the opponent has free reign.
From a team perspective, it's similar enough. You don't lose your whole army, but just like if you lose a teamfight with several of your team members still alive, the remainder still can't do anything practically meaningful until you rebuild/respawn.
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Starcraft is a game of exploiting timing difference between the power curves of the playstyles and build paths, which opens up a lot more play than simply having to make a choice between army, econ, and tech after winning a fight, since before the fight starts there was already some commitment to a distribution of the 3.
League doesn't have anything like that, because between lategame items, midgame items, and gold items, there hasn't been meaningful granularity. Gold items were either unstoppable or irrelevant, and all the midgame items now build into even more efficient lategame items.
In SC terms, you have infinite marine upgrades that eventually turn them into siege tanks, and killing your opponents expos gives you gold. Not only that, marines, zerglings, and zealots are all pretty much the same unit in terms of relative strengths.
It would have been very interesting to see how the game would be played now if we were still on S2. Fast push was already seeing development, but a ton of the nerfs to the CLG.EU "invest in Karthus and stall" playstyle weren't in effect yet. That might have been a rare chance to actually see a clash between chosen viable power curves (GSG fast push had its own power curve, but that's like a 6 pool you broadcast from champion select).
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So extending your examples to LoL it'd be like buying cheap stuff (I remember someone building exec calling for lifesteal, but he was on the winning team and expected the fight to end the game, but elixirs probably count) and rushing the enemy as they try to kill Nashor off a downed inhib, or send a splitpusher apply cross-map pressure as the enemy team sets out to take your inner towers when you have strong wave clear, etc.?
I don't see how the onus should be on the winning team, because they have already taken risks, or outplayed, etc. to acquire their lead in the first place. Requiring them to do it consistently can only lead to longer games, as the "natural" outcome would be for them to slip up at some point and get back to even, save for large skill discrepancies.
If a team has proven to be stronger/better in one or two occurrences already, such that they have a lead, then the "natural outcome" is that they will ultimately take the game unless their opponents step up. Issues arise when "ultimately" becomes a certainty, and the defining lead can be acquired too easily (eg. the snowball criticism).
There are two solutions to combat this: the first is to make the lead harder to acquire in the first place, either by diminishing gains or making them harder to get (first blood and outer towers changes are examples).
The second is to make it easier to reduce the lead before it reaches the threshold/increase the reward for risky plays afterwards so there are incentives to actively "seek the comeback".
The former has been addressed exp-wise with the jungle camps and drake changes, although seemingly overtuned at the moment. It still leaves you somewhat behind in gold though, leaving the leading team ahead. The later has been somewhat addressed with the assist streaks I guess, since to get all this gold you want to fight and get several kills each time, and avoid losing by such a margin that you give up objectives (eg. being active helps you make the lead meaningless). However, the amont of gold is such that it is a very reliable "strategy", and "crippling the enemy team enough that they can't push, no matter how much gold we give them" is a good enough way to stall the game until your whole team is back to relevance.
In short, "getting ahead" in these fights becomes a nice bonus, rather than the objective, but you just plays these teamfights "not to lose" while the gold flows. I don't like it because it doesn't feel a "natural" way to play the game. Trying to stall should be because of a specific game plan (letting a strong late-game champ's scaling kick in, for example), not the default behaviour.
Finally, it also makes me curious about how this could affect the drafting pool since such gold flows make a lot of champions (burst mages with long cooldowns or semi-tanks/AoE mages in particular) weaker as a result of their windows of dominance being shortened. They aren't exactly the most popular sort already*, so I'm eager to see what the season 4 changes will mean for them and their relevance.
*Smarter people than me will correct me, but I feel like the competitive pool is centered around strong laning/pick champions or lategame beasts, with the few midgame-oriented exceptions being either bruisers peaking there but remaining strong late (Shyvana, Renekton) or outright too strong (Ahri).
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On November 26 2013 00:00 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 19:28 GolemMadness wrote:On November 25 2013 17:04 Scip wrote:On November 25 2013 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
Despite many people's predictions, Eve's popularity and win rate have remained basically the same so far. I wonder if it'll start to pick up once things have settled down a bit and relic's is nerfed. wtf, Evelynn is broken as FUCK there is enough gold in the jungle to build AP and you dont have to worry about anyone buying pinks because they suck and then you can get hyperbuffed spectral wrath for massive sustain, shit's OP I am staggered that her winrates haven't spiked. My first thought would be that that's because more people who never played her before try her out, but if her popularity hasn't spiked that's not the case. Not sure why that is o.o You could build AP before as well...? If the new SotSW were that great, then Fiddlesticks and Amumu would see a huge increase in their win percentage as well. The simple fact is that the sustain it provides isn't that great, and it provides slower clear times than SotEL did for Eve. From the games I've played so far, her early game definitely seems harder. Hitting level 3 later makes your first gank less likely to succeed, your jungle clears are very painful until you get SotSW, and the 10% less CDR hurts Eve probably more than any other jungler. Yes, people are less likely to see you coming for a gank, but if you're not strong enough to kill them, it's not a great trade off. hahaha building AP was viable only in extremely specific situations (like some triple-AP comps, something along the lines of Liss+Vlad+Eve, where Eve could be the one to get Abyssal), in general with the lack of levels you would be too squishy to really be able to do anything. Fiddlesticks is so much more awesome as a support than a jungler that no, we wouldn't see a huge winrate spike. Amumu does have some significant problems, one of them could potentially be bad AP ratios (considering all his skills are melee-only), which could correlate with not getting more awesome with the introduction of the new SotSW. You also might find it interesting the the Spirit of the Spectral Wrath DOES give 10% CDR. Not sure what setup you are using that you are having trouble earlygame with Eve, I use flat AP quints+blues, flat AD reds and armor yellows, and use 21-9-0 masteries (for specific masteries you can check my lolking profile - SF Scipeaus)
While I agree with most of what you're saying I do think that building AP was viable in more then "extremely specific" situations. I personally always liked the Zhonyas + Abyssal combo, because with your ult you are actually quite tanky and you still do a nice amount of damage. And if they have some AoE wombocombo you can just Zhonyas and laugh.
I mean, no, rushing a Deathcap out of the jungle has never been viable and never will be (I hope), but there are quite a lot of semi-tanky AP items and I personally think that Eve uses them very well.
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On November 26 2013 00:00 Eppa! wrote:
In offence tree does spell weaving work on physical spells? as in riven Q or similar?
It says "spell damage" and not "ability power", so I would assume so. It wouldn't make sense for them to make it otherwise.
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Finland33997 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +
Does this mean I can now pretend I know something about this game?
Also eh, Evelynn's always been built AP in my games .-. After SotEL it always was DFG and probably HG and eventually lich bane and whatnot. I actually cannot recall a single game where Evelynn built especially tanky, in fact she was one of the only junglers who didn't always go Bulwark + Locket. Then again, maybe I just don't play with people that are good enough.
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Random idea re: Yasuo's wall - Do you think it would be more balanced if it became a channeled ability rather than a fire-and-forget? It's crazy bonkers right now but forcing him to remain in place to block shots might create some really interesting uses for it.
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Also, on the tank or damage debate: OddOne has been saying for a few days now that going tanky is useless, you get instagibbed regardless (or rather, don't do enough in the short amount of time you are alive). Better build damage. Although he does go 21 defense on some champions. He just builds damage on all champions. Anecdotal evidence from his stream is for example an enemy nocturne who was tearing shit up early game. After two offensive items (i think Elder Lizard and Cleaver) he went tank. Proceeds to feed and not do ANYTHING in game. OddOne on Vi proclaims "PEOPLE IN LOW ELO WERE CORRECT ALL ALONG, THIS IS THE ULTIMATE BUILD!" - Elder Lizard, Triforce and Last Whisper.
Soooo yeah. That and the fact that he said repeatedly that the only champion to EVER build tank on is Olaf. He usually goes Tabis, three DBlades and Sunfire.
Edit: Btw, does anyone else feel like you can not farm properly in jungle anymore? People taking jungle ALL THE TIME directly from the start of the game. I feel like I have to farm nonstop so nobody else takes my shit.
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If you guys haven't tried cow on One for All on howling abyss I highly recommend.
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Finland33997 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:51 BrownBear wrote:
Random idea re: Yasuo's wall - Do you think it would be more balanced if it became a channeled ability rather than a fire-and-forget? It's crazy bonkers right now but forcing him to remain in place to block shots might create some really interesting uses for it.
That would be terrible. Reducing duration would be a much smoother choice.
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The more I've played Olaf, the more I feel like with him being weaker w/o an offensive item Sunfire isn't as good, considering you're going to spend a bunch of gold toward either Tiamat or Cutlass (Cutlass more likely) and you'll want CDR (eg. FH or SV, most probably SV because HP and passive too) then starting Sunfire will make you stronger early on but you'll have to leverage it hard to either complete a 2nd item by the time your opponent gets his core item, or get your splitpushing going to make it worth.
Also when comparing Olaf who relies on boots2 asap if he plans on teamfighting with shit like Riven who can get away with staying bootless, it easily adds 1k to expenditures. T_T
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On November 26 2013 01:03 mordek wrote:
If you guys haven't tried cow on One for All on howling abyss I highly recommend.
make sure it's 5v5 all cow on both teams, though.
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On November 26 2013 01:08 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:03 mordek wrote:
If you guys haven't tried cow on One for All on howling abyss I highly recommend. make sure it's 5v5 all cow on both teams, though.
We played a team of kats and the tension was pretty awesome in teamfights. The constant mooing had me laughing the whole game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://oi44.tinypic.com/2dqtzzq.jpg)
