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On November 23 2013 02:22 Eiii wrote:
I think it's a good idea to reserve judgment until the dust settles on this patch a bit. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the changes they made and the few games I've played so far haven't felt great, but I think a lot will change as riot tweaks numbers and people figure out the game better.
Waiting for us to move out of the League of Targons phase. Watching NACL yesterday was a textbook case of it being borked (outside of VES vs Crs, but that's more of VES/Denial-subs are hilariously outclassed by Crs in skill level).
Outside of Targs (which is currently overshadowing all other changes to a hilarious degree), I'm not entirely opposed to the changes that have been made (and support the general design direction of most of them), but as is, the rest of the preseason changes just can't be judge in comparision.
I still think, while gold distribution has generally moved in the right direction, we're currently facing too much gold throughout a game, and the basic flow is largely skewed towards endgame now. How much of it rests on Targons/Relic, and how much of it just requires readjustments to global gold flow is a question that can't be quite answered yet, however.
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On November 23 2013 02:20 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:13 canikizu wrote:On November 23 2013 02:04 LaM wrote:On November 23 2013 02:01 canikizu wrote:
I guess it's just me, I don't think Targon is that absurd. It's the best item out of the 3 new ones, but it gives you what? 1 creep every 30 sec, which is like 25gold (1 melee minion) / 30sec = 8 gp10, and gives your lane partner another 10 gold/30sec.
So like, in 10 min, it gives you 500 gold, in 20 min it gives you 1000 gold. Since the item is way better than the other 2, either it needs a nerf or other 2 need a buff.
I think the reason support has way too much gold not because of the gold item, but the way assist "streak" right now. You get bonus gold for assist as long as you have 2 more assist than kill (for example, kill 0, assist 2,3,4,5,6). Moreover, death and kill doesn't break the "streak" With 4x Targon you can have 5k+ free gold for your team every game by 30 minutes. Easily. That's almost 8 dragons of gold, but instead of grouping to take an objective to get it - you got it for free while shoving and healing! With the old 4x Philosopher's Stone, you can have almost 4k gold for your team every game by 30 minutes too. That's how gp10 works. Hell, in s3, you can even stack gold item, so if your team has 4 philosopher stone and 4 kage pick, you have over 6k gold by 30 minutes by just being in the game, not even need to stick to your lane partners. Targon is simply the best one out of 3 new items, and Riot is gonna nerf it soon, or buff other 2. That's gonna be our new normal. On November 23 2013 02:06 Requizen wrote:
The only thing that I dislike about Assist Streaks is that it now dissuades supports from sacrificing themselves for the carry. Before, you'd be ok taking a death if it meant your carry got away alive, because you weren't worth as much and they needed to be alive to farm and keep BT stacks and what not. Now you can't eat that many deaths if you want to keep up your Streak. Death/Kill doesn't reset your "streak" "streak" is a vague way to say it, the way it works it as long you have more than 2 assist than kill, you will receive a bonus gold. That is why a 1/10/26 sona can have more gold than a 17/5/11 caitlyn despite caitlyn participating in more fight and having more kill. Lmao. There is no comparison between philo/kages (which pay for themselves after 20+ minutes and are only good on a couple of champs) and Targons (which pays for itself after 5 minutes, is good on literally everybody, and provides huge lane control through shove and sustain). They aren't going to buff the other 2. This won't be the new normal. It's going to be nerfed to the ground lol. When are we getting that diamond+ subreddit again. Holy fk.
I only use your logic. You compare on the big scale of 4 players and 5k, which is as absurd as mine. You imagine a perfect scenario where you can get all the targon charges perfectly for all 4 players, which as we have seen on various stream and yesterday tournament's game, is impossible.
Moreover, 5k+ in the system for 4 players at 30 minutes still mean that each player has 1200+ gold, which doesn't account for any big significant item. Even the Ruby Sightstone costs more than that.
As I said, Targon is the best item out of 3, but the gold it gives doesn't account for even half or 1/4 of the items the support can get by 30 minutes. I still think the bigger issuse is the way assist bonus work. It's way to easy to get assist, there're some people report that they get 300+ gold for an assist (assist for ending a killing spree) If you score at at least 6 assist (and make your your kill is always lower than your assist) you make way more money than the targon's gold generation.
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Double targons is broken because
1: It's too strong individually compared to the other items because riot was assuming everyone perfectly CSs, and you can hold stacks for when you arent farming so its way stronger. the Philo/Kages only work well when you are actively in lane.
2: The double dipping means the support effectively gets double the normal gold he would have gotten for a small investment from the ADC
once they somehow hotfix targons everything will be fine
nobodys going to be trying to jungle with supporst to abuse the extra XP somehow and getting ancient golem (Hard enough to keep stacks down midgame asjungler as it is) or doing any weird shit, just playing the non nerfed supporst (zyra fiddles thresh annie) and getting tons of gold
u
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On November 23 2013 02:35 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:20 LaM wrote:On November 23 2013 02:13 canikizu wrote:On November 23 2013 02:04 LaM wrote:On November 23 2013 02:01 canikizu wrote:
I guess it's just me, I don't think Targon is that absurd. It's the best item out of the 3 new ones, but it gives you what? 1 creep every 30 sec, which is like 25gold (1 melee minion) / 30sec = 8 gp10, and gives your lane partner another 10 gold/30sec.
So like, in 10 min, it gives you 500 gold, in 20 min it gives you 1000 gold. Since the item is way better than the other 2, either it needs a nerf or other 2 need a buff.
I think the reason support has way too much gold not because of the gold item, but the way assist "streak" right now. You get bonus gold for assist as long as you have 2 more assist than kill (for example, kill 0, assist 2,3,4,5,6). Moreover, death and kill doesn't break the "streak" With 4x Targon you can have 5k+ free gold for your team every game by 30 minutes. Easily. That's almost 8 dragons of gold, but instead of grouping to take an objective to get it - you got it for free while shoving and healing! With the old 4x Philosopher's Stone, you can have almost 4k gold for your team every game by 30 minutes too. That's how gp10 works. Hell, in s3, you can even stack gold item, so if your team has 4 philosopher stone and 4 kage pick, you have over 6k gold by 30 minutes by just being in the game, not even need to stick to your lane partners. Targon is simply the best one out of 3 new items, and Riot is gonna nerf it soon, or buff other 2. That's gonna be our new normal. On November 23 2013 02:06 Requizen wrote:
The only thing that I dislike about Assist Streaks is that it now dissuades supports from sacrificing themselves for the carry. Before, you'd be ok taking a death if it meant your carry got away alive, because you weren't worth as much and they needed to be alive to farm and keep BT stacks and what not. Now you can't eat that many deaths if you want to keep up your Streak. Death/Kill doesn't reset your "streak" "streak" is a vague way to say it, the way it works it as long you have more than 2 assist than kill, you will receive a bonus gold. That is why a 1/10/26 sona can have more gold than a 17/5/11 caitlyn despite caitlyn participating in more fight and having more kill. Lmao. There is no comparison between philo/kages (which pay for themselves after 20+ minutes and are only good on a couple of champs) and Targons (which pays for itself after 5 minutes, is good on literally everybody, and provides huge lane control through shove and sustain). They aren't going to buff the other 2. This won't be the new normal. It's going to be nerfed to the ground lol. When are we getting that diamond+ subreddit again. Holy fk. I only use your logic. You compare on the big scale of 4 players and 5k, which is as absurd as mine. You imagine a perfect scenario where you can get all the targon charges perfectly for all 4 players, which as we have seen on various stream and yesterday tournament's game, is impossible. Moreover, 5k+ in the system for 4 players at 30 minutes still mean that each player has 1200+ gold, which doesn't account for any big significant item. Even the Ruby Sightstone costs more than that. As I said, Targon is the best item out of 3, but the gold it gives doesn't account for even half or 1/4 of the items the support can get by 30 minutes. I still think the bigger issuse is the way assist bonus work. It's way to easy to get assist, there're some people report that they get 300+ gold for an assist (assist for ending a killing spree) If you score at at least 6 assist (and make your your kill is always lower than your assist) you make way more money than the targon's gold generation.
I guess you can think whatever you want. You are completely wrong though and I don't think anybody agrees with you in the slightest that assist gold streaks are a bigger problem than Targon's right now.
Targon's provides too much gold too quickly with stats that are too good for every champion in the game. It is going to be nerfed into the ground.
Also, it really delegitimizes what you are trying to say when you are a Silver 1 player who in his past 10 games hasn't built a Targon's or Relic Shield yet and says stuff like 1200+ gold per player isn't important because it's not even a big item.
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what's this about assist streaks? I forgot what they changed with it
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On November 23 2013 02:30 Inflexion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:13 canikizu wrote:On November 23 2013 02:04 LaM wrote:On November 23 2013 02:01 canikizu wrote:
I guess it's just me, I don't think Targon is that absurd. It's the best item out of the 3 new ones, but it gives you what? 1 creep every 30 sec, which is like 25gold (1 melee minion) / 30sec = 8 gp10, and gives your lane partner another 10 gold/30sec.
So like, in 10 min, it gives you 500 gold, in 20 min it gives you 1000 gold. Since the item is way better than the other 2, either it needs a nerf or other 2 need a buff.
I think the reason support has way too much gold not because of the gold item, but the way assist "streak" right now. You get bonus gold for assist as long as you have 2 more assist than kill (for example, kill 0, assist 2,3,4,5,6). Moreover, death and kill doesn't break the "streak" With 4x Targon you can have 5k+ free gold for your team every game by 30 minutes. Easily. That's almost 8 dragons of gold, but instead of grouping to take an objective to get it - you got it for free while shoving and healing! With the old 4x Philosopher's Stone, you can have almost 4k gold for your team every game by 30 minutes too. That's how gp10 works. Hell, in s3, you can even stack gold item, so if your team has 4 philosopher stone and 4 kage pick, you have over 6k gold by 30 minutes by just being in the game, not even need to stick to your lane partners. Targon is simply the best one out of 3 new items, and Riot is gonna nerf it soon, or buff other 2. That's gonna be our new normal. On November 23 2013 02:06 Requizen wrote:
The only thing that I dislike about Assist Streaks is that it now dissuades supports from sacrificing themselves for the carry. Before, you'd be ok taking a death if it meant your carry got away alive, because you weren't worth as much and they needed to be alive to farm and keep BT stacks and what not. Now you can't eat that many deaths if you want to keep up your Streak. Death/Kill doesn't reset your "streak" "streak" is a vague way to say it, the way it works it as long you have more than 2 assist than kill, you will receive a bonus gold. That is why a 1/10/26 sona can have more gold than a 17/5/11 caitlyn despite caitlyn participating in more fight and having more kill. The problem with Targon is not the fact that it generates gold over a period of time. The problem stems from its 'cost-effectiveness'. It gives you hp WHILE also generating gold for you. It was the exact same problem with Heart of Gold back in S2. Having the HP boost, means that in combat/duels, you actually gain an immediate advantage in power. So in the short-term, someone who invested in an immediate (HP, Dorans, Armor, etc.) power spoke should NOT have a long term gain of gold as well. For example, if I purchase a Doran Blade instead of Relic Shield, when it comes to laning, I should have a distinct advantage if we were to trade/duel with my lane opponent as I invested in short term(assuming equally skilled). But the problem with Relic Shield/Targon's is that you are able to go toe to toe with the Doran Blade purchaser (or close to it) AND gain massive amounts of gold in the long term. Basically, if you purchase a GP10 item, players should not be gaining a short-term immediate combat advantage while the GP10 item is taking time to pay itself off as GP10 is an investment long term. Philospher's Stone stayed in the game because it only provided mana regen which had almost zero effect on all-in's or duels.
Yeah that's what I thought too since the beginning. It gives you way too much sustain than other 2 items, allowing you to stay in lane, therefore more "assist streak" if kills are to happen.
That's why I also think the item is op, but not the gp10 op, but the sustain op. There should be big trade off for the features it give, either nerf the gp10 or the sustain to inline with other items.
On November 23 2013 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:
what's this about assist streaks? I forgot what they changed with it
Assist Streaks (now renamed to Assist Bonuses!):
Q: How will assist streaks work?
A: Assist streaks (as we initially called them) aren't anything like kill streaks, where they're lost if you die. Hence the renaming to something a little more clear, like assist bonuses! Anyway, if your assists are higher than your kills by 2 or more, you'll get additional gold per assist thereafter. You can't "end" an assist streak by dying and, if you get a kill but your assists remain much higher than your kills, you won't "ruin" your streak in any way.
basically you get bonus gold as long as your assist-kill>2. People report that you can get 300+ gold for an assist by ending a killing spree and up.
And you can't technically end an assist streak, unless you feed them kills.
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Well in the couple of games I played yesterday.
Targon's brace gave my support like 300 gold extra by first base, and about 1200 to my team by the time I sold it to make room. You invest a small amount of money(seriously, HP, regen and a heal passive aren't bad) in exchange for getting your support a massive amount of gold.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not just support gold though.
There's very little reason not to buy a Relic Shield on ANYONE this patch, because it's so freaking cheap, becomes free so quickly, and becomes cost-efficient along the way even more quickly. Even if you're not starting with one, it only takes ~5 minutes of consistent usage to become completely free, and the investment required is not enough to punish. Even if it's not the gold item you want long-term, you can still buy a Relic Shield when you have 365 gold to spare early game, use it a couple times, and have made a surplus by the time you want to get rid of it.
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On November 22 2013 02:48 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 01:52 BrownBear wrote:
I spent all this time getting not terrible at this game just to have everything I know thrown out the window :/ Sure you did 
Well, i said not terrible. I'm still a bad 
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relic shield on solos is pretty questionable, on junglers it's probably not worth because ancient golem is pretty solid
It is "support gold", because it gives the cs to the adc, +5 or 10 which is reasonably small, but you could also view it as 2 laners sharing eveningly and getting 1 extra creep each per 30 seconds so you get 8 creep waves or double cannon minions on 3rd waves its dumb
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2013 02:41 Slayer91 wrote:
relic shield on solos is pretty questionable, on junglers it's probably not worth because ancient golem is pretty solid
It doesn't actually compete with Ancient Golem till you actually want to FINISH Ancient Golem. If you buy one on your first back, it's going to have earned its keep by the time you actually have the gold to finish Ancient Golem and sell it.
Remember that only COMPLETED Ancient Golem is a gold generation item. Spirit Stone isn't.
On solos you don't have to start with it, but even buying one around the time lanes break down, you still will get enough use out of it for it to be a gold surplus before you'd ever need to sell it to fill the slot or complete a major item.
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Yeah but running into lane to use 2 stacks every minute to get 2 extra cs instead of doing something worthwhile like ganking or just getting the same gold farming jungle doesnt really make much sense
unless you want to play like a nunu and spend most of your time laning, jungles lose a lot of time going to lanes like that all the time since they have to move all around the map, if you show up top bot is fucked etc
edit: Assist streaks are dumb, giving suppotrs a chance to be in the game is one thing, but if this is charity then janna is like susan G komen making 600k a year because janna just auto gets assists so easily for example
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On November 23 2013 02:43 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah but running into lane to use 2 stacks every minute to get 2 extra cs instead of doing something worthwhile like ganking or just getting the same gold farming jungle doesnt really make much sense
unless you want to play like a nunu and spend most of your time laning, jungles lose a lot of time going to lanes like that all the time since they have to move all around the map, if you show up top bot is fucked etc
What are you talking about? You can just gank a lane and use the stacks afterwards. It's not like if you walk to lane with a Relic Shield you aren't allowed to gank it before using the stacks. And it makes perfect sense to get the same gold in lane instead of in the jungle, because two people are getting it.
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On November 23 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:
It's not just support gold though.
There's very little reason not to buy a Relic Shield on ANYONE this patch, because it's so freaking cheap, becomes free so quickly, and becomes cost-efficient along the way even more quickly. Even if you're not starting with one, it only takes ~5 minutes of consistent usage to become completely free, and the investment required is not enough to punish. Even if it's not the gold item you want long-term, you can still buy a Relic Shield when you have 365 gold to spare early game, use it a couple times, and have made a surplus by the time you want to get rid of it.
Mid lane's the only role where Targ's isn't effective (or at least, instabuy) given both the short lane and now isolation from the two duo lanes (with jungles going top). But its stats are ridiculously good, in addition to its ease of gold-gen.
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United States47024 Posts
You don't have to be using those stacks every minute on CD. You just pop those 2 stacks after a gank. Even if you're "wasting" time by sitting at 2 charges sometimes, it's still going to pay itself off fast enough.
It's 365 gold, and only has to generate 183 gold to be a net surplus when you sell it. That's like 7 activations, less if any of them are cannon creeps.
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thats about 5 ganks when you want to also push the lane to make it profitable, not sure if its worth it, 5 ganks is already quite a lot to do before ancient golem in this patch when you get so much sweet farm
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United States47024 Posts
I think the XP bonus to being behind + relic shield incentivize camping/ganking and disincentivize farming way more than you feel is the case.
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the jungle xp is based on the entire team right? from my experience the behind junglers just end up 1 level behind instead of 2, successful jungles get enough xp from pushing the lane to gank after a successful gank
being behind your entire team leads to so many risks because anytime you gank and the ahead jungler is there it's an easy doublekill
i think if you want to abuse relic shield just go duo top but they are going to hotfix it for sure
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2013 02:46 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:
It's not just support gold though.
There's very little reason not to buy a Relic Shield on ANYONE this patch, because it's so freaking cheap, becomes free so quickly, and becomes cost-efficient along the way even more quickly. Even if you're not starting with one, it only takes ~5 minutes of consistent usage to become completely free, and the investment required is not enough to punish. Even if it's not the gold item you want long-term, you can still buy a Relic Shield when you have 365 gold to spare early game, use it a couple times, and have made a surplus by the time you want to get rid of it. Mid lane's the only role where Targ's isn't effective (or at least, instabuy) given both the short lane and now isolation from the two duo lanes (with jungles going top). But its stats are ridiculously good, in addition to its ease of gold-gen.
You won't start with it, but it's unlikely that a midgame Relic Shield won't generate a surplus before you sell it for a major item even if you only buy it after lanes break up.
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On November 23 2013 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:
thats about 5 ganks when you want to also push the lane to make it profitable, not sure if its worth it, 5 ganks is already quite a lot to do before ancient golem in this patch when you get so much sweet farm
Farming really isn't that amazing in the new jungle. Even if it is good, Relic Shield lane camping is better.
But even if you want to farm jungle, just go to lane once and kill one creep. Boom. Your Relic Shield is now gold efficient for the stats it provides. One creep.
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EPT
