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On November 07 2013 02:25 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. Coordination and high mobile kite teams=riven useless GG
This explains why no NA team really dealt with ZionSpartan's Riven play in LCS.
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I don't know if putting 2 people in her lane AND picking a very specific teamcomp count as a "counter". I think she is a bit too strong curently, hydra gives her monster sustain and aoe. I think it is only a matter of changing numbers because her playstyle is hightly enjoyable for some people.
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On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's.
So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On November 07 2013 01:56 jcarlsoniv wrote:
What was wrong with Noc Q?
you had to stand on the exact center of the trail to get ms and ad buff, which means realistically, in a fight, you're never getting it the moment anyone moves
basically if you stand still and cast it you'll get it so it was fine for jungling if you never moved and it was all but useless in fights orz
legit they were runing around and spreading the trail everywhere and i wasnt getting the buff >>
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On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped.
Power creep in general =/= champion specific picks being weaker
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Wut. Riven can just QQQ to one-shot the wave past a point, unless you snowball really hard and really early on her (and she'll come back in a single kill if her jungler comes) she'll reach it and laugh at you. Renekton could be the same (dash in with AoE, cc enemy laner, nuke with AoE, dash/walk out) but he doesn't build damage items usually so the clear isn't as efficient.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On November 07 2013 02:32 SagaZ wrote:
I don't know if putting 2 people in her lane AND picking a very specific teamcomp count as a "counter". I think she is a bit too strong curently, hydra gives her monster sustain and aoe. I think it is only a matter of changing numbers because her playstyle is hightly enjoyable for some people.
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she is trash all you hve to do is camp her and put multiple ppl in her lane...easy counter pretty much unviable
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On November 07 2013 02:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:32 SagaZ wrote:
I don't know if putting 2 people in her lane AND picking a very specific teamcomp count as a "counter". I think she is a bit too strong curently, hydra gives her monster sustain and aoe. I think it is only a matter of changing numbers because her playstyle is hightly enjoyable for some people. ? she is trash all you hve to do is camp her and put multiple ppl in her lane...easy counter pretty much unviable
Problem with designing a team comp around one champion, is you lose sight of the other 4 champions on the Riven's team. However, sending 2v1 is hardly an over investment to shutdown a champion, as it's a pretty common strategy.
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Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story.
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On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story.
If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF)
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF)
I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/
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On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped.
I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions.
Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs.
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On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/
Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick)
On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs.
#'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though.
power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s.
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deleted post pointless discussion
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On November 07 2013 02:56 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/ Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick) Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs. #'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though. power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s.
Sure, but when almost every champion is slightly weaker than they were a year ago and some of the champions with the oldest kits still see regular play at the highest level, I don't really see any evidence of power creep.
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On November 07 2013 03:13 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:56 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/ Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick) On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs. #'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though. power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s. Sure, but when almost every champion is slightly weaker than they were a year ago and some of the champions with the oldest kits still see regular play at the highest level, I don't really see any evidence of power creep.
One old champion still being strong says nothing at all about power creep. Power creep is a trend, it's not an iron rule that applies strictly to every single champion.
Edit: I misread, you said "some of the champions", not "one of the champions". My bad. Yeah, in that case your post is indeed entirely relevant.
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On November 07 2013 03:13 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:56 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/ Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick) On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs. #'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though. power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s. Sure, but when almost every champion is slightly weaker than they were a year ago and some of the champions with the oldest kits still see regular play at the highest level, I don't really see any evidence of power creep.
you say 5 old champions, and 5 new champions, 5 old champions out of like 90, vs 5 out of the new 20. that is power creep.
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Let's be honest 2 seconds, riven's mobility is absolutely ridiculous.
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Out of curiosity, at Gold level I rarely see people play Kha these days, still more Zed (though it dropped a lot), much more Riven, and Kass/Fizz are currently permabanned.
How come? I recently tried Kha for the first time in months after seeing a few posts mentioning Alex Ich's SotEL/manamun/brutalizer build, and it felt extremely strong. I snowballed hard as soon as team fights started despite being behind in a fairly unforgiving lane (Vlad got doublekill early on).
Is Kha still considered sub-par compared to, say, Zed? Or is he just not as popular because he was nerfed well before Zed's changes came through? He can't W in flight, but his E-Q combo is still ridiculously fast.
I usually play bruiser Nid or more recently Teemo top, and I forgot how nice it is to be able to carry teamfights hard (capitalize on an out of position player) instead of relying on split pushing and your team not engaging 4v5.
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On November 07 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:13 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:56 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/ Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick) On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs. #'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though. power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s. Sure, but when almost every champion is slightly weaker than they were a year ago and some of the champions with the oldest kits still see regular play at the highest level, I don't really see any evidence of power creep. you say 5 old champions, and 5 new champions, 5 old champions out of like 90, vs 5 out of the new 20. that is power creep.
If you break it down at Leona it's actually 39 new vs 80 old (give or take one), so champs post-Leona are twice as likely to be in those top 10. But the numbers may look even more skewed depending on where you draw the line.
But in competitive games you would also expect older champions to be overrepresented, not underrepresented, since people learn more about champs and ideal (/novel) builds as time goes on. If the new champs are already more popular despite having had less exposure, it'll only get more skewed as time goes on (barring targeted item/champ nerfs).
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EPT
