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On November 07 2013 03:56 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:51 red_ wrote:On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping. Power creep is when new elements are introduced that are stronger than most existing elements (eventually displacing all existing elements) - introducing new elements that are simply able of competing with existing elements is not power creep, it's good design. Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve". You can count them as new champions if you like, it doesn't matter. It is a good thing to go back and tweak old champions that have been consistently weak. None of those champions (or any reworked champion I can think of) have broken through the upper bound of power.
Power creep doesn't really exist as far as damage numbers go because of Riot's love of the symmetric, item based power curve. Percentage health is a poor crutch though for getting tanks to deal damage with no items rather than making tanks scale better with items.
Where it shows up is in kits. Let's take a look at mobility for a moment. Look at how many "old" champions have mobility skills. Now look at new kits. There's shit like zac who can engage from bascially outside vision range with his E. You have vi with double gap closers, one of which is completely unavoidable.
Mana costs. Before mana cost reductions, look at how Riot has just done mana costs in recent history. Elise had her Q cost increased like 4? times and she's still fucking strong. Riot has not only trended towards making mana costs irrelevant, they've also trended towards rewarding spammable kits. Just look at the ultimate cost reductions as of late. There are now only 4 champions in the game who actively build mana rather than regen because the mana costs are so low so as to not require a pool for extended engagements. Swain, Anivia, Kassadin and Ryze. Ryze Kass and Swain can almost directly convert mana into damage.
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So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this?
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On November 07 2013 04:47 UnKooL wrote:
TF is really good these days. Perfect time to pick him up if you know how to play him and only took a break because of the assassin meta mid for the later half of S3. Hes good because people forgot to play against him and its that meta shift period mid where there isn't a set meta at the moment because of the assassin nerfs so people are trying to figure out what works and people forgot about TF and how strong he is.
If you want to learn TF pm or add me on UnKooL, my TF isn't perfect there are still things I need to improve on like autoing mid-card shuffle, remembering to chase without orb walking with similar movespeed for gold card + Q combos, porting in after I see where people are on the minimap, DFG+gold card+q combos and etc. but I managed to get to Diamond 1 with him and I think anyone can.
I might just take you up on this offer. Twisted Fate has always been one of my favorites aesthetically but not so much playing him normally I just get regulated to supports or jungle so I don't really get to play him as much as I'd like ie, hardly at all.
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There's just no reason to build damage on darius. Stack the armor and the health. Stack it high.
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On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious.
Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen.
On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this?
Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot.
Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen.
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that's pretty bad advice imo, dorans start is pretty much a necessity in top lane... the damage block and the health regen is too good to not buy it. tell your support to ward top for you.
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Or just kill enemy laner before jungler can get top.~45 sec if they get good leash.
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On November 07 2013 05:43 Osmoses wrote:
There's just no reason to build damage on darius. Stack the armor and the health. Stack it high.
Applies to renekton to, already does an incredible amount of damage so you may as well live forever.
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On November 07 2013 06:07 Dusty wrote:
that's pretty bad advice imo, dorans start is pretty much a necessity in top lane... the damage block and the health regen is too good to not buy it. tell your support to ward top for you.
Yeah, soloq supports have always refused whenever I asked.
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On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen.
Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)?
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I actually really like to mix in a tiamat if I'm ahead on Darius instant 4 stack dunks are pretty retarded
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Tiamat procs a stack? That's brutal.
Speaking of which, do people jungle Darius often? I do it sometimes in normals and it's seriously one of the most fun junglers I've ever played.
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On November 07 2013 04:57 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:56 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 03:51 red_ wrote:On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping. Power creep is when new elements are introduced that are stronger than most existing elements (eventually displacing all existing elements) - introducing new elements that are simply able of competing with existing elements is not power creep, it's good design. On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve". You can count them as new champions if you like, it doesn't matter. It is a good thing to go back and tweak old champions that have been consistently weak. None of those champions (or any reworked champion I can think of) have broken through the upper bound of power. Power creep doesn't really exist as far as damage numbers go because of Riot's love of the symmetric, item based power curve. Percentage health is a poor crutch though for getting tanks to deal damage with no items rather than making tanks scale better with items. Where it shows up is in kits. Let's take a look at mobility for a moment. Look at how many "old" champions have mobility skills. Now look at new kits. There's shit like zac who can engage from bascially outside vision range with his E. You have vi with double gap closers, one of which is completely unavoidable. Mana costs. Before mana cost reductions, look at how Riot has just done mana costs in recent history. Elise had her Q cost increased like 4? times and she's still fucking strong. Riot has not only trended towards making mana costs irrelevant, they've also trended towards rewarding spammable kits. Just look at the ultimate cost reductions as of late. There are now only 4 champions in the game who actively build mana rather than regen because the mana costs are so low so as to not require a pool for extended engagements. Swain, Anivia, Kassadin and Ryze. Ryze Kass and Swain can almost directly convert mana into damage.
I'd stick Malz on this list as well as a few tops. Poopy.
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On November 07 2013 07:23 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Tiamat procs a stack? That's brutal.
Speaking of which, do people jungle Darius often? I do it sometimes in normals and it's seriously one of the most fun junglers I've ever played.
I think it's a blast
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On November 07 2013 07:12 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen. Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)?
I'm talking about examples where AP ratios are more troublesome than AD ratios. You know, what we were actually talking about.
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On November 07 2013 07:39 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:12 cLutZ wrote:On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen. Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)? I'm talking about examples where AP ratios are more troublesome than AD ratios. You know, what we were actually talking about.
How are things that were fixed (seemingly instantly, and permanently) troublesome?
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On November 07 2013 07:46 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:39 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 07:12 cLutZ wrote:On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen. Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)? I'm talking about examples where AP ratios are more troublesome than AD ratios. You know, what we were actually talking about. How are things that were fixed (seemingly instantly, and permanently) troublesome?
Because your arguement was that AD ratios are more troublesome than AP ratios, but I don't recall the last time an AD ratio was so out of whack that it completely distorted gameplay. Neither were fixed instantly and if you count patching things then ratios don't matter anyway, AD or AP.
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On November 07 2013 07:39 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:12 cLutZ wrote:On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen. Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)? I'm talking about examples where AP ratios are more troublesome than AD ratios. You know, what we were actually talking about.
AD ratios have the issue that every champ has a 1.0 AD scaling ability on short cooldown - their autoattack. It makes it much more difficult to balance abilities that have AD ratios because you have this other unmodifiable ratio to take into account.
Riot has had a history of slapping random AP ratios on AD champions and then having it bite them in the ass later -- Trynd, Rengar, Sion. But in general it's easier to balance AP ratios than it is to balance AD ratios.
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On November 07 2013 08:07 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:39 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 07:12 cLutZ wrote:On November 07 2013 06:03 Gahlo wrote:On November 07 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it. Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious. Really? Rengar and Tryndamere disagree. Those ratios turned a champions entire itemization on it's head and made it better because of the issue it presented. In the case of Riven's shield, it doesn't change her itemization at all. You can lower the ratio and up the base and she'd still be the AD Queen. On November 07 2013 05:03 Frudgey wrote:
So I had a question about starting items, specifically for Darius.
So normally for Darius I start Rejuvenation Bead + potions + a ward. I like this opening because it gives me a ward and then I can build the Rejuvenation Bead into the Hydra, so it's not wasted.
However against some strong AD champions I'm wondering if I should be starting cloth armor instead. My only concern about this however, if I don't have the ward that I'll get ganked. And for Darius this is a big problem because whenever I walk to lane I essentially have a giant "GANK ME" sign posted on my back.
But on the other hand, having that extra armor could help me not die in lane. At least, this is what I thought, but I honestly don't know if +15 armor will make a huge difference in lane. I mean yes it'll give me %15 more durability against physical attacks, but I'm thinking that if I'm playing Darius, I should be good enough to win against AD's without needed that extra armor.
What's your guys's opinion on this? Shield/1pot is better than cloth5 in most cases anyway. If you're gonna be passive before first back, go shield. If you want to be aggressive, take bead/ward/pot. Sub 1.5k hp, you're better off buying health over resists. The health on Doran's shield, assuming X/21/X is a ~18.5% health increase at level 1, not taking into account whatever armor you already have. So not only are you tankier on both sides of the coin, you also get the massive auto damage reduction and constant regen. Rengar and trynd are your examples of good balance? Or are you trying to talk about the old ap builds that were easily rectified (proving my point by way)? I'm talking about examples where AP ratios are more troublesome than AD ratios. You know, what we were actually talking about. AD ratios have the issue that every champ has a 1.0 AD scaling ability on short cooldown - their autoattack. It makes it much more difficult to balance abilities that have AD ratios because you have this other unmodifiable ratio to take into account. Riot has had a history of slapping random AP ratios on AD champions and then having it bite them in the ass later -- Trynd, Rengar, Sion. But in general it's easier to balance AP ratios than it is to balance AD ratios.
This. Just because they carelessly have a few champs random AP ratios (probably because they didn't even expect those champs to ever build AP) doesn't refute the fact that AD scaling Carries an innate extra degree of difficulty when balancing.
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