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On November 07 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:13 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:56 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:51 Fusilero wrote:On November 07 2013 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 02:48 Sponkz wrote:
Riven only excels in solo queue, end of story. If zed didn't get hit so hard, she'd probably see quite a bit more play in midlane as a zed counter. (similar to how ahri pick evolved in Korea, as a anti-TF, thus we saw a huge drop in ban/pick from TF) I wonder with the subsequent nerfing of assassins whether TF will return to prominence, those nerfs tho :/ Fizz will still dumpster on TF, so long as one of them exists, TF will never be safe! (unless he's 5th pick) On November 07 2013 02:55 Alzadar wrote:On November 07 2013 02:37 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. So you're not a believer in the game having power creeped. I would agree with that. Nerfs are more common than buffs (and it's pretty rare for buffs to make a champion OP), and new champions aren't consistently stronger than old champions. Take a look at the 10 most popular champs from Worlds (>60% pick/ban): Zed, Shen, Corki, Ahri, Zyra, Elise, Sona, Orianna, Thresh and Lee Sin. Using Leona as a pivot (the first new champion for me, released July 2011), that's 5 old champs and 5 new champs. #'s nerf doesn't mean there hasn't been power creep though. power creep has a lot more to do with the champions inate power through kit, than actual #'s. Sure, but when almost every champion is slightly weaker than they were a year ago and some of the champions with the oldest kits still see regular play at the highest level, I don't really see any evidence of power creep. you say 5 old champions, and 5 new champions, 5 old champions out of like 90, vs 5 out of the new 20. that is power creep.
38 new vs 78 old, but true enough: Riot doesn't purposefully make new champions that are totally shit, that just means the average strength of champions is increasing. However there is still a pretty clear upper bound on the power curve of all champions, aka no power creep.
e.g. say Annie and Fiddlesticks have a power level of 8, while Sion and Ryze have a power level of 4. The average power level is 6. Now release Aatrox and Jinx, both with power level 7. The 4 most picked champions are Annie, Fiddlesticks, Aatrox and Jinx - new champions are twice as likely to be picked as old champions!
A higher rate of newer champions being picked just means Riot is better at making viable champions. The fact that many older champions still see plenty of play (without any buffs) shows that the upper bound on power hasn't increased much (if at all).
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How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve".
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On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve".
Not to mention obvious item changes that made corki blatantly stupid. He might as well be a new champion.
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On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping.
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On November 07 2013 03:36 bmn wrote:
Out of curiosity, at Gold level I rarely see people play Kha these days, still more Zed (though it dropped a lot), much more Riven, and Kass/Fizz are currently permabanned.
How come? I recently tried Kha for the first time in months after seeing a few posts mentioning Alex Ich's SotEL/manamun/brutalizer build, and it felt extremely strong. I snowballed hard as soon as team fights started despite being behind in a fairly unforgiving lane (Vlad got doublekill early on).
Is Kha still considered sub-par compared to, say, Zed? Or is he just not as popular because he was nerfed well before Zed's changes came through? He can't W in flight, but his E-Q combo is still ridiculously fast.
I usually play bruiser Nid or more recently Teemo top, and I forgot how nice it is to be able to carry teamfights hard (capitalize on an out of position player) instead of relying on split pushing and your team not engaging 4v5.
He got changed. The way people played him was nerfed in the process, and they didn't feel like trying to relearn, or they didn't even believe another way was possible, so they dropped him.
Kha'Zix could do the poking (and partially disengaging) by himself, to make sure that once in he'd have a reset by finishing off a target. Other reset-reliant champions need to go in (from AP Yi/Trist to Katarina to Akali) so if they aren't fed enough to one-shot a valuable target (except for Yi, it's not worth it to burn your stuff on the support just because he's the squishiest) they need their team to either help them focus people down, or do pre-fight poking.
Kha'Zix did the poking himself so was autonomous, which essentially "freed" a spot in the rest of the team. If you wanted to keep playing poke/reset Kha'Zix post-changes, you'd have had to run him alongside another poker to compensate for the damage drop, or spend more time spamming W at people until they got into kill range. Neither solutions satisfied the pros, and soloQ is a lemming haven.
Now if people are more willing to run him as a straight-up all-in assassin, they can realise his damage output is still very high, with a stronger single-target dps than most other assassins past the initial burst, and several escape mechanism (assuming E gets evolved). Zed and Fizz would usually be preferred (also Ahri but she's not even that much single-target oriented) so even if they thought about it they wouldn't run it in the competitive scene. It's still perfectly viable in soloQ, since people have success even with the "tame" assassins like Pantheon, Akali and Talon.
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On November 07 2013 03:51 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping.
Power creep is when new elements are introduced that are stronger than most existing elements (eventually displacing all existing elements) - introducing new elements that are simply able of competing with existing elements is not power creep, it's good design.
On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve".
You can count them as new champions if you like, it doesn't matter. It is a good thing to go back and tweak old champions that have been consistently weak. None of those champions (or any reworked champion I can think of) have broken through the upper bound of power.
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On November 07 2013 02:29 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 02:25 Sponkz wrote:On November 07 2013 02:23 wei2coolman wrote:On November 07 2013 00:23 Osmoses wrote:
Riven isn't OP, but I definitely think shes annoying to lane against. It's hard to punish her mistakes due to the constant dashing and shielding and if you don't have chainmail by the time she hits 6 you might as well not show up in lane anymore. She's only strong, cuz nerfs hit everyone else. She's still highly susceptible to 2v1's. Coordination and high mobile kite teams=riven useless GG This explains why no NA team really dealt with ZionSpartan's Riven play in LCS.
Yup. Remember, only one team in NA drafted well by the time S3 ended.
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On November 07 2013 03:36 bmn wrote:
Out of curiosity, at Gold level I rarely see people play Kha these days, still more Zed (though it dropped a lot), much more Riven, and Kass/Fizz are currently permabanned.
How come? I recently tried Kha for the first time in months after seeing a few posts mentioning Alex Ich's SotEL/manamun/brutalizer build, and it felt extremely strong. I snowballed hard as soon as team fights started despite being behind in a fairly unforgiving lane (Vlad got doublekill early on).
Is Kha still considered sub-par compared to, say, Zed? Or is he just not as popular because he was nerfed well before Zed's changes came through? He can't W in flight, but his E-Q combo is still ridiculously fast.
I usually play bruiser Nid or more recently Teemo top, and I forgot how nice it is to be able to carry teamfights hard (capitalize on an out of position player) instead of relying on split pushing and your team not engaging 4v5.
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Kha'zix has been played quite abit on high elo on EUW lately. That Q-max shit makes for some interesting cheese strats (saw a guy run fort pot versus akali with success)
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i'm glad people are speaking up about the shittyness of the current ranking system, i'm kinda tired of gaining 3 lp or losing 5 each game
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On November 07 2013 03:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve". Not to mention obvious item changes that made corki blatantly stupid. He might as well be a new champion.
Look, I'm not going to disagree that there may be power creep, but trying to count champions with no real changes to their kit since release as new champions is dishonest and weakens your overall argument. At this point you're just saying "any champion that received any kind of indirect buff counts as new, and most of the good champs are new, so there's power creep" which is pretty circular.
And I'm dubious about the claim of power creep too -- there is nothing anywhere near the level of release Twisted Fate or Gangplank in the game today.
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On November 07 2013 03:56 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:51 red_ wrote:On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping. Power creep is when new elements are introduced that are stronger than most existing elements (eventually displacing all existing elements) - introducing new elements that are simply able of competing with existing elements is not power creep, it's good design. Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve". You can count them as new champions if you like, it doesn't matter. It is a good thing to go back and tweak old champions that have been consistently weak. None of those champions (or any reworked champion I can think of) have broken through the upper bound of power.
Power creep definitely refers to the average strength more than to the upper bound. The upper bound is pretty irrelevant, just because there was one stupidly OP old champ that doesn't say anything about what the general power level of old champs was. There are over 100 champs, saying that only the strongest champ matters is ridiculous.
And no, power creep doesn't require that new elements are introduced that are stronger than most existing elements.
A typical example was new champs having several elements that were previously typically specialties of one champ. Look at WW, he has very high lane sustain but terrible wave clear, low mobility, etc. Other champs might have had high mobility but low sustain. If new champs frequently have both high mobility and high sustain while old champs typically had only one of them, that'd be a fine example of power creep.
(This mobility/sustain trade-off is obviously a simplification, but that's why champs like Zed were so frustrating: They were released with high mobility, high burst, good wave clear, so it's much harder to counterplay against than champs which have clearly-defined weaknesses.)
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The biggest influence is the fact that everytime they nerf X, champion Y gets stronger, which is why they should already stop this blantly nerfing all the day, and fucking buff champions instead. Remember the holy trinity of AD Carries? All 3 (Ezreal, Graves and Corki respectively) got nerfed, making Vayne the new fotm-champion. Now that´s fucking circular, because everytime Vayne see's competetive play of some sort, people get extremely frustrated and that often turns into a nerf of Vayne, making the Holy trinity strong again LOL (with some changes in between of course).
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Kha'Zix's Q:
Range: 325 (375 with Evolved Enlarged Claws)
Cooldown: 3.5
Cost: 25 mana
Physical damage: 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 (+ 150% bonus AD) (+45% if isolated)
Mana pool: 260 (+40)
Passive deals from 15 to 55 damage pre-6 + slows for 2s.
W slows too, 1k range.
E can be used as an escape in case of gank or all-in
Pantheon's Q:
Range: 600
Cooldown: 4
Cost: 45 mana
Physical Damage: 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 (+ 140% bonus AD)
Mana pool: 210 (+34)
W is a gap-closer/stun
Really, it only takes one to realise that even without evolving Q Kha'Zix is a monster laner, his only drawbacks compared to Panth are lack of defense (eg. Panth's passive vs auto traders/harassers, but he can heal with his W at short range) and range, but once he manages to get there he's got 2 slows to keep you close while he abuses his Q's short cd. And if you botch your escape he's going to chase for the isolation bonus damage.
Kha'Zix's dps (especially post-6 for passive renewal via ult) is really high.
^ I don't see much Graves and Corki is only here because of Triforce though. Cait is much more prevalent and she happens to shit on Graves, which doesn't help I'll agree.
I'm more wondering about why Varus isn't picked more, but I guess that it's because he's teamfight-oriented while people prefer to pick and push now, so his reliance on his ult is a liability.
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On November 07 2013 04:08 Alaric wrote:
Kha'Zix's Q:
Range: 325 (375 with Evolved Enlarged Claws)
Cooldown: 3.5
Cost: 25 mana
Physical damage: 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 (+ 150% bonus AD) (+45% if isolated)
Mana pool: 260 (+40)
Passive deals from 15 to 55 damage pre-6 + slows for 2s.
W slows too, 1k range.
E can be used as an escape in case of gank or all-in
Pantheon's Q:
Range: 600
Cooldown: 4
Cost: 45 mana
Physical Damage: 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 (+ 140% bonus AD)
Mana pool: 210 (+34)
W is a gap-closer/stun
Really, it only takes one to realise that even without evolving Q Kha'Zix is a monster laner, his only drawbacks compared to Panth are lack of defense (eg. Panth's passive vs auto traders/harassers, but he can heal with his W at short range) and range, but once he manages to get there he's got 2 slows to keep you close while he abuses his Q's short cd. And if you botch your escape he's going to chase for the isolation bonus damage.
Kha'Zix's dps (especially post-6 for passive renewal via ult) is really high.
^ I don't see much Graves and Corki is only here because of Triforce though. Cait is much more prevalent and she happens to shit on Graves, which doesn't help I'll agree.
I'm more wondering about why Varus isn't picked more, but I guess that it's because he's teamfight-oriented while people prefer to pick and push now, so his reliance on his ult is a liability.
Meh, single-ability comparisons are inherently flawed, as you have to look at entire kits (but it's harder to get your point across if you do that...)
I can easily compare panth and khazix like this too:
Pantheon's E:
Range: 600
Cost: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 mana
Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds
Damage: 78 / 138 / 198 / 258 / 318 + 360% bonus AD
Applies black cleaver 3 times
Khazix's W:
Range: 1000
Cooldown: 8s
Cost: 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 mana
Damage: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 + 100% bonus AD
Applies black cleaver once
Heartseeker Strike is clearly broken yes?
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is evolving q that much better than evolving e for khaz? i feel like at level 6 you could just go bot roam and have a ridiculous e jump and reset for ganking allows him to be a lot more threatening. that and he can usually kill people pretty easily already without the extra damage
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On November 07 2013 03:51 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:43 Alzadar wrote:
average strength of champions is increasing
no power creep.
Wat? That's like, the definition of power creep. If the average champion is stronger, it now requires a new level of strong to be considered an outlier, or on the opposite end, a formerly average champion who was not changed, will now be considered weak. This game is 100% creeping.
Not really. Power creep does involve average champion power increases but mainly means that new champions are stronger than old champions. Its the fact that new champions are consistently stronger which drives the 'creep' because in order to compete with the last set the new set of champions has to be ever stronger.
Basically look at how MtG progressed (or progresses depending on how you look at it) before they made a conscious effort to reduce power creep (specifically by lowering power in general and then cycling old cards out so that if they made anything too strong they only had to compete with it for a certain amount of time)
However, just because the average power level is increasing doesn't mean there is power creep. Because it could very well be that the top end of the power level is staying the same and the variance of the champion power levels is decreasing. This has the same effect of increasing the average champion power. But since people "only" pick the top end of the power level anyway, it also has the effect of increasing the effective champion pool, keeping more champions viable, all while new champions aren't necessarily OP.
That is to say that whatever we're calling it; it doesn't have any of the negative aspects of power creep that we actually care about.
On November 07 2013 03:45 Requizen wrote:
How are you classifying reworked champions? Sivir, Heimer, and Yi recently went through reworks to be closer on the "power curve".
No. Hiemer/Yi went through reworks because their previous kits were binary and toxic.
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On November 07 2013 04:33 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 04:08 Alaric wrote:
Kha'Zix's Q:
Range: 325 (375 with Evolved Enlarged Claws)
Cooldown: 3.5
Cost: 25 mana
Physical damage: 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 (+ 150% bonus AD) (+45% if isolated)
Mana pool: 260 (+40)
Passive deals from 15 to 55 damage pre-6 + slows for 2s.
W slows too, 1k range.
E can be used as an escape in case of gank or all-in
Pantheon's Q:
Range: 600
Cooldown: 4
Cost: 45 mana
Physical Damage: 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 (+ 140% bonus AD)
Mana pool: 210 (+34)
W is a gap-closer/stun
Really, it only takes one to realise that even without evolving Q Kha'Zix is a monster laner, his only drawbacks compared to Panth are lack of defense (eg. Panth's passive vs auto traders/harassers, but he can heal with his W at short range) and range, but once he manages to get there he's got 2 slows to keep you close while he abuses his Q's short cd. And if you botch your escape he's going to chase for the isolation bonus damage.
Kha'Zix's dps (especially post-6 for passive renewal via ult) is really high.
^ I don't see much Graves and Corki is only here because of Triforce though. Cait is much more prevalent and she happens to shit on Graves, which doesn't help I'll agree.
I'm more wondering about why Varus isn't picked more, but I guess that it's because he's teamfight-oriented while people prefer to pick and push now, so his reliance on his ult is a liability. Meh, single-ability comparisons are inherently flawed, as you have to look at entire kits (but it's harder to get your point across if you do that...) I can easily compare panth and khazix like this too: Pantheon's E: Range: 600 Cost: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 mana Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds Damage: 78 / 138 / 198 / 258 / 318 + 360% bonus AD Applies black cleaver 3 times Khazix's W: Range: 1000 Cooldown: 8s Cost: 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 mana Damage: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 + 100% bonus AD Applies black cleaver once Heartseeker Strike is clearly broken yes?
I mentioned other stuff apart from just the Qs themselves, but don't you think it was already long enough without having to replace 2 "mana pool" lines by restating how Pantheon is fucked by sustain because he's helpless if he runs oom without forcing you back and how Kha'Zix is much less sensible to this?
Also your comparison doesn't work for my point, which was laning, because Panth won't have black cleaver at this point, his big scaling on E won't be there yet since he tends to prefer ArPen runes early on to abuse his Q's base damage. Also longer cooldown early on which gives windows to his opponents to farm, harass, etc. and AoE ability meaning it's going to push even if you just want to zone/harass, contrary to their respective Qs.
As lane bullies, they rely primarily on their Qs (and, in Panth's case, his passive) and autos to do the job. Panth's vulnerable to ganks because of his lack of escapes and defensive measures (and he'd like to start with offensive stuff because of his reliance on winning lane too), while Kha'Zix has a "safety net" with his jump and ranged slow (and the fact that contrary to Panth he remains an assassin even late game).
So drawing a comparison between a known lane bully bread'n'butter, and Kha'Zix's own one doesn't feel displaced to me.
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TF is really good these days. Perfect time to pick him up if you know how to play him and only took a break because of the assassin meta mid for the later half of S3. Hes good because people forgot to play against him and its that meta shift period mid where there isn't a set meta at the moment because of the assassin nerfs so people are trying to figure out what works and people forgot about TF and how strong he is.
If you want to learn TF pm or add me on UnKooL, my TF isn't perfect there are still things I need to improve on like autoing mid-card shuffle, remembering to chase without orb walking with similar movespeed for gold card + Q combos, porting in after I see where people are on the minimap, DFG+gold card+q combos and etc. but I managed to get to Diamond 1 with him and I think anyone can.
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On November 07 2013 04:08 Alaric wrote:
I'm more wondering about why Varus isn't picked more, but I guess that it's because he's teamfight-oriented while people prefer to pick and push now, so his reliance on his ult is a liability.
I think it is more that people both do not understand his strengths in push and siege comps. He is very strong with few weaknesses in lane (Early weak vs Corki, Later potentially weak vs Ez/Vayne but should beat both early)
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On November 06 2013 22:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 22:13 Alaric wrote:On November 06 2013 13:29 Gahlo wrote:On November 06 2013 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
riven is such a dumb champ
ad scaling shield
ok Fun activity: Look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield. Then shut up. Educational activity: look at the champion roster and count how many have an AP scaling shield, AP scaling on their autoattacks, a deathcap passive included in their kit, huge sustain off of autoattacks improved by said deathcap passive, and are manaless. Then please try to be a bit more polite? Your example is bad because Riven with Hydra or BT will heal for a bunch, while fueling a powerful, low cd shield (think Udyr's Turtle Stance midgame, except Riven's doesn't only scale with levels and she has better sustain off her itemisation). Add to that her ult's bonus AD and the way her passive lets her heal for massive amounts of health through the additional damage, and you'll start to get how dumb it gets during fights. Her health swings are enormous, and because she has 4 dashes and 2 cc in her kit she can also make up for her lack of AS (she doesn't heal as often, but an enemy cc'd or out of range won't attack either so by reducing their ps it makes her sustain relatively stronger). She's also got a pretty absurd scaling, full AoE, on her combo (EWQQQ with some autos weaved in) that chasing her is dangerous if she can get her cooldowns back. On top of the fact that you can't chase her anyway because she's got one of the lowest cd wall jumps in the game (there are exceptions, like Nidalee, Vi, Graves or Ezreal, but most of them require auto-ing to reduce the cd anyway) and so many dashes that even Orianna, or Kayle would have trouble catching her. She's one of the hardest snowballing champions in the game (while scaling hader than Pantheon and being harder to come back against than Wukong) and if she gets an exp advantage on you she will kill you at 6, even under her turret because she has the AD scaling of an assassin. She's super safe if she wants too, while being second only to the likes of Renekton, Jayce or Kayle when it comes to non-interactivity during her trades/disengages. She may not be OP, especially competitively since she needs farm past 6 and she sucks 1v2, but she's sure as hell a pain in the ass to deal with even withou playing against the top of the cream. Uh, no. It's a constant trend for people to be perfectly fine with something an AP based character has but then flip out when an AD character does. Listing off the other half of her kit has 0 to do with it.
Its usually much worse for balance purposes for something to be AD scaling vs. AP scaling. Thats because you have to account for autoattacks while balancing, which are highly variable from circumstance to circumstance. Its "fine" on ranged carries because they are all about autoattacks anyways, but on melle champs, its dubious.
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EPT
