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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2013 04:52 Slusher wrote:
it's conceivable.
honestly the way Korean teams looked at worlds (good but not god mode) I feel like the playing field could be pretty even if the ability to practice with Asian teams at lan speed was available to top NA/EU teams, unfortunately it is not.
Why the fuck does it matter if you play on LAN ping?
Just play on foreign servers and scrim. If you are good enough to have a chance, you won't get stomped hard enough that you don't learn a lot, which means it will be worthwhile. If you're getting stomped so hard that you don't learn anything, then you're not close enough in skill for you to have a chance anyway.
It's what the Koreans teams did when there were like only 3 relevant Korean teams and they sucked--they scrimmed on NA, lost every game, but improved.
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On November 04 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 04:52 Slusher wrote:
it's conceivable.
honestly the way Korean teams looked at worlds (good but not god mode) I feel like the playing field could be pretty even if the ability to practice with Asian teams at lan speed was available to top NA/EU teams, unfortunately it is not. Why the fuck does it matter if you play on LAN ping? Just play on foreign servers and scrim. If you are good enough to have a chance, you won't get stomped hard enough that you don't learn a lot, which means it will be worthwhile. If you're getting stomped so hard that you don't learn anything, then you're not close enough in skill for you to have a chance anyway. It's what the Koreans teams did when there were like only 3 relevant Korean teams--they scrimmed on NA, lost every game, but improved.
The problem with that tho is are you going to get relevant teams to want to scrim? Most top Korea teams have sister teams to scrim with and i doubt there eager to practice with foreign teams.
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Thats sidestepping his point, which is correct, but yes that is an additional problem.
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United States47024 Posts
There are two major advantages to scrimming foreign teams.
1) You can practice strategies against someone that will never play it against in a real game. Sister teams can do this, but even sister teams go against each other in OGN.
2) You get exposure to foreign playstyles.
And honestly, the difference in ability between the top 10-ish teams in Korea is a lot smaller than people make it out to be. Particularly when you're talking about a practice environment since a lot of what makes the top 5-ish teams stand out is comfort playing in big tournaments and a LAN setting--both of which have no relevance to practice quality.
I'm willing to bet that even scrimming 2nd tier Korean teams on overseas ping would be worthwhile for the top NA teams, and I'm sure they'd find willing practice partners among 2nd tier Korean teams.
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On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go.
Actually, I don't watch much pro league, so I didn't go into words liking them, but found it really hard not to like them by the time they were knocked out. I didn't think any of them were particularly endearing in interviews and such, but they managed to make their play feel charismatic, and I'm not sure how.
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On November 04 2013 06:04 TheYango wrote:
There are two major advantages to scrimming foreign teams.
1) You can practice strategies against someone that will never play it against in a rea game. Sister teams can do this, but even sister teams go against each other in OGN.
2) You get exposure to foreign playstyles.
And honestly, the difference in ability between the top 10-ish teams in Korea is a lot smaller than people make it out to be. Particularly when you're talking about a practice environment since a lot of what makes the top 5-ish teams stand out is comfort playing in big tournaments and a LAN setting--both of which have no relevance to practice quality.
Pros would rather whine about no scrim partners than do something like this. It's rather pathetic.
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On November 04 2013 06:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go. Actually, I don't watch much pro league, so I didn't go into words liking them, but found it really hard not to like them by the time they were knocked out. I didn't think any of them were particularly endearing in interviews and such, but they managed to make their play feel charismatic, and I'm not sure how.
Dyrus is a big lovable bear because he dies so often.
Yeah, I don't get TSM fanboys and never will.
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On November 04 2013 05:43 zer0das wrote:
TSM will still suck next season.
Depends on how the shotcalling situation rolls out. It is probably one of the main reasons why TSM never "upgraded" their mid (outside of Regi owning the team), and its critical no matter how much better Bjergson is than Regi as a player. If TSM can't adjust to it (probably unless Bjergson takes up that role, given none of the rest of TSM really has the personality for it[especially after years of following Captain Regi]), they're going to tank. Most certainly not into promos (they're still strong as a whole), but they may sink to CLG status (not quite Crs, though).
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On November 04 2013 06:13 Lord Tolkien wrote:Depends on how the shotcalling situation rolls out. It is probably one of the main reasons why TSM never "upgraded" their mid (outside of Regi owning the team), and its critical no matter how much better Bjergson is than Regi as a player. If TSM can't adjust to it (probably unless Bjergson takes up that role, given none of the rest of TSM really has the personality for it[especially after years of following Captain Regi]), they're going to tank. Most certainly not into promos (they're still strong as a whole), but they may sink to CLG status (not quite Crs, though).
Bjergsen was the shotcaller in nip unless I remember wrong.At least he used to be when they were wolves.
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Im pretty sure Xpecial will take over shotcalling duties, how succesful he is at it remains to be seen.
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On November 04 2013 06:13 Lord Tolkien wrote:Depends on how the shotcalling situation rolls out. It is probably one of the main reasons why TSM never "upgraded" their mid (outside of Regi owning the team), and its critical no matter how much better Bjergson is than Regi as a player. If TSM can't adjust to it (probably unless Bjergson takes up that role, given none of the rest of TSM really has the personality for it[especially after years of following Captain Regi]), they're going to tank. Most certainly not into promos (they're still strong as a whole), but they may sink to CLG status (not quite Crs, though).
Xspecial shot called at All Stars, he can shot call for TSM.
Dyrus won't die a lot if he is playing tanky champions like he is used to and not top Karthus [good lord what a terrible pick]
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If Xpecial takes over shotcalling, it'll be interesting to see if he ends up like Chauster, someone who wanted to shotcall, but wasn't very proficient at it. Although, I guess Xpecial isn't adjusting to a new role so it should be easier for him.
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On November 04 2013 06:04 TheYango wrote:
There are two major advantages to scrimming foreign teams.
1) You can practice strategies against someone that will never play it against in a real game. Sister teams can do this, but even sister teams go against each other in OGN.
2) You get exposure to foreign playstyles.
And honestly, the difference in ability between the top 10-ish teams in Korea is a lot smaller than people make it out to be. Particularly when you're talking about a practice environment since a lot of what makes the top 5-ish teams stand out is comfort playing in big tournaments and a LAN setting--both of which have no relevance to practice quality.
I'm willing to bet that even scrimming 2nd tier Korean teams on overseas ping would be worthwhile for the top NA teams, and I'm sure they'd find willing practice partners among 2nd tier Korean teams.
I don't really know if it really is worth it playing with overseas ping. After watching iG get destroyed by I think it was MeatPlayground (one of the amateur NA teams at the time anyway) about a year ago (some IEM or IPL qualifier thing) I think the ping difference is really crippling (unless Chinese teams are much worse affected because of the Great Firewall, I don't know about that?).
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On November 04 2013 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go. What? Yung bjersen is a god. I'd root for him no matter what team he's on. Now he actually has a botlane that can do stuff, they gunna shit on the NA teams so hard. As far as tsm still sucking compared to world class teams, that'll still happen until dyrus stops feeding 8 kills in first 5 min of game.
Dyrus only is feeding all those kills because TOO is too dumb to recognize the strat of every team is "Shut down Dyrus, don't let Regi get fed".
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On November 04 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 04:52 Slusher wrote:
it's conceivable.
honestly the way Korean teams looked at worlds (good but not god mode) I feel like the playing field could be pretty even if the ability to practice with Asian teams at lan speed was available to top NA/EU teams, unfortunately it is not. Why the fuck does it matter if you play on LAN ping? Just play on foreign servers and scrim. If you are good enough to have a chance, you won't get stomped hard enough that you don't learn a lot, which means it will be worthwhile. If you're getting stomped so hard that you don't learn anything, then you're not close enough in skill for you to have a chance anyway. It's what the Koreans teams did when there were like only 3 relevant Korean teams and they sucked--they scrimmed on NA, lost every game, but improved.
Playing on 200 ping will make you lose lane every time vs competant people anywhere near your skill level.
Ping is a much much bigger deal then your making it out to be.
Also, its REALLY hard to adjust to switching from playing with high ping to low ping, and vice versa, and it's just not worth it.
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On November 04 2013 06:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go. What? Yung bjersen is a god. I'd root for him no matter what team he's on. Now he actually has a botlane that can do stuff, they gunna shit on the NA teams so hard. As far as tsm still sucking compared to world class teams, that'll still happen until dyrus stops feeding 8 kills in first 5 min of game. Dyrus only is feeding all those kills because TOO is too dumb to recognize the strat of every team is "Shut down Dyrus, don't let Regi get fed".
In some cases that's true, but at other times they knew it and decided to make a 3v1 play bot. Dyrus played poorly there and died when he had a chance to live, and TOO missed his cocoon on Impact's Renekton, which made it an awful trade.
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On November 04 2013 06:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go. What? Yung bjersen is a god. I'd root for him no matter what team he's on. Now he actually has a botlane that can do stuff, they gunna shit on the NA teams so hard. As far as tsm still sucking compared to world class teams, that'll still happen until dyrus stops feeding 8 kills in first 5 min of game. Dyrus only is feeding all those kills because TOO is too dumb to recognize the strat of every team is "Shut down Dyrus, don't let Regi get fed".
Though this was part of the problem. There were tonz of glaring solo plays by dyrus that led to his performance in worlds.
On November 04 2013 06:36 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:On November 04 2013 04:52 Slusher wrote:
it's conceivable.
honestly the way Korean teams looked at worlds (good but not god mode) I feel like the playing field could be pretty even if the ability to practice with Asian teams at lan speed was available to top NA/EU teams, unfortunately it is not. Why the fuck does it matter if you play on LAN ping? Just play on foreign servers and scrim. If you are good enough to have a chance, you won't get stomped hard enough that you don't learn a lot, which means it will be worthwhile. If you're getting stomped so hard that you don't learn anything, then you're not close enough in skill for you to have a chance anyway. It's what the Koreans teams did when there were like only 3 relevant Korean teams and they sucked--they scrimmed on NA, lost every game, but improved. Playing on 200 ping will make you lose lane every time vs competant people anywhere near your skill level. Ping is a much much bigger deal then your making it out to be. Also, its REALLY hard to adjust to switching from playing with high ping to low ping, and vice versa, and it's just not worth it.
Still not an excuse. Teams should be trying to learn from each other, even if shit ping.
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On November 04 2013 06:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 05:55 wei2coolman wrote:On November 04 2013 05:49 Ketara wrote:
I don't understand how people can retain their TSM fanboyism.
They're still douchebags, and now they're also no longer the best talent in NA. Let it go. What? Yung bjersen is a god. I'd root for him no matter what team he's on. Now he actually has a botlane that can do stuff, they gunna shit on the NA teams so hard. As far as tsm still sucking compared to world class teams, that'll still happen until dyrus stops feeding 8 kills in first 5 min of game. Dyrus only is feeding all those kills because TOO is too dumb to recognize the strat of every team is "Shut down Dyrus, don't let Regi get fed".
Or Dyrus could just not go on tilt after feeding first blood.
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In my personal experience I've never seen a team with the support as shotcaller do well. Also I think it's dumb to have one shotcaller, two is far better, three is too many. The jungler HAS to make calls during laning, a good mid SHOULD be making calls early mid game, those responsibilities are just natural extensions of how the roles work.
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Playing with some ping is great practice for foreseeing movement patterns. You do need to play with the "regular" ping some too of course.
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EPT
