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On November 15 2013 18:46 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:41 Loving Memory wrote:
SKT1K just banned Olaf in Champions Winter, and Monte said it was to block Jungle Olaf.
I don't suppose anyone knows how they build and skill him? lvl 3 gank. Flash then Q. If you hit the Q, then they 100% die, flash or not.
Wat
On November 15 2013 18:26 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:08 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 17:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Hydra is a luxury buy imo. Your entire teams has to be winning to justify 3k gold expense in pure offense. I don't think this is true at all. In fact when your team is faltering but you are personally doing well, that is probably a better time to get hydra. Example: 1. Your backline is relatively weak, but you are strong (and the rest of your frontline is). 2. The enemy frontline is weak, but their backline is really strong. Game comes down to 2 things: 1. Can you kill the enemy teams backline quickly enough? 2. Can your backline survive when you abandon them to deal with the weaker enemy frontline? If you can get both to work out, you're usually golden and will win. There are many, many games where I've had to dive an adc with a diving buddy and quickly kill the adc because they are... Vayne for instance. All the defense in the world won't help you against Vayne, you have to erase her or she will kill you eventually. It's similar to the argument I put forth in the Sej thread. It doesn't do you much good to live through a fight if the rest of your team dies in the interim and 4 enemy team members survive, so often times building more damage (if you're already surviving a decent length of time) makes a hell of a lot more sense because you can (potentially) eliminate high threat targets more effectively than other people on your team. If your team is already ahead, stack defense away, because your backline is probably obliterating all of the enemy team. Edit: to be absolutely clear, I'm talking about after you already have 2-4 defensive items. Not rushing hydra. Idk, I just see SRO do it in his games a lot (he posts a daily renekton game every day on his channel, solorenektononly if you want to check it out), and I usually win lane and have trouble because some other lane will do poorly so I want to be able to dive in and R> - E- empowered W (hydra)>auto>Q>auto>E to kill their guy quickly. Maybe I'm just better off building tanky, idk; I just have a ton of trouble in solo Q turning an advantage in my lane into a win.
A damage item may well increase your lead in a lane you're already winning, but for the mid and lategame teamfights you need to be able to tank as Renekton. That's his role, that's why you pick Renekton. If you have other tanks on your team and you wanna be the guy to go in and delete their squishies, play a different champ.
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Edit: ^ dang, I really need to watch the VoDs. Are they easy to find in English (as in OGN's youtube channel has English titles for them)? Which match was he played in?
Sunfire first champs are such bitches to burst mages, they get 0 MR and still are so damn hard to kill. :<
(Shen-Nasus-Renekton worst top laners as Viktor main, urgh. Riven's really close because of the stupid amount of healing her AD steroids give with minimal lifesteal, and her shield.)
Sunfire is easier and faster to build than randuin's, which is important wrt early backs, and it passively increases your dps so against your lane opponent each second more needed to kill you thanks to the EHP translates into one more tick of damage. It quickly adds up, especially when you have sustain to synergise with the additional survivability. Renekton for example doesn't do that much damage when all his abilities are on cd and that's when you're supposed to outtrade him. But if he's got a sunfire cape it makes you take more damage for trying to slug it out with him over trading in bursts. And you can't outtrade him in bursts (nor even kill him considering his ult and then Sunfire's EHP).
Go die in the fire of your own item Renek. :[
On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place.
Slow resist diminishes the potency of the slow, tenacity reduces the duration of the slow. They don't stack like that, and for example Sejuani's passive will help against Singed's Mega Adhesive while Tenacity will almost not at all. Obviously if you combine slow resist and tenacity it screws with stuff like Wither too (I don't know about slow resists, but tenacity/cc reduction has diminishing returns since it stacks multiplicatively, so one source of slow resist + one of tenacity > 2 of a single one in terms of overall distance travelled during the slow's nominal duration).
On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/ Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game. With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q)
How do you classify champions like Irelia and Jax then? Irelia tends to go sunfire too when picked competitively but that probably has more to do with the limited farm in a 1v2 lane than with her inherent role in teamfights.
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To clarify, if you can kill vayne great, but any decent adc will always play safe enough to not die to just a single player once they get good enough at judging said bruisers strength, maybe you can chase them away from the fight but normally they have the backup of the whole team, so your job as renek becomes to prevent vayne from killing your team.
-->Running ahead and "tanking" is fucking retarded.
-->Staying too far back and using your cds on a tank is also retarde dbecause it lets vayne free hit
You have to find the balance between staying back and being in position to punish vayne if she tries to do anything other than take a potshot and run back. Anytime she goes in you want ideally to be able to E E W Q but if you had to use W at least E E Q and have your W coming up soon (and having sunfire+R aoe is 100 DPS, so if you're tanky she will lose health fast even if it's just you and won't be able to clean up a fight if she's half hp because someone else can burst her down before she can lifesteal+DPS them down)
Coordination is important too. The worst thing is your Ahri running in and wasting her ult an dhaving to flash out again because you weren't ready, OR you running in too early before said Ahri can go in. You want to coordinate with your team to take out important targets so they can't just their single get out of jail card to get away, they have to pick 1 of you and the other gets to do the damage.
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On November 15 2013 18:48 Alaric wrote:Edit: ^ dang, I really need to watch the VoDs. Are they easy to find in English (as in OGN's youtube channel has English titles for them)? Which match was he played in? Sunfire first champs are such bitches to burst mages, they get 0 MR and still are so damn hard to kill. :< (Shen-Nasus-Renekton worst top laners as Viktor main, urgh. Riven's really close because of the stupid amount of healing her AD steroids give with minimal lifesteal, and her shield.) Sunfire is easier and faster to build than randuin's, which is important wrt early backs, and it passively increases your dps so against your lane opponent each second more needed to kill you thanks to the EHP translates into one more tick of damage. It quickly adds up, especially when you have sustain to synergise with the additional survivability. Renekton for example doesn't do that much damage when all his abilities are on cd and that's when you're supposed to outtrade him. But if he's got a sunfire cape it makes you take more damage for trying to slug it out with him over trading in bursts. And you can't outtrade him in bursts (nor even kill him considering his ult and then Sunfire's EHP). Go die in the fire of your own item Renek. :[ Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. Slow resist diminishes the potency of the slow, tenacity reduces the duration of the slow. They don't stack like that, and for example Sejuani's passive will help against Singed's Mega Adhesive while Tenacity will almost not at all. Obviously if you combine slow resist and tenacity it screws with stuff like Wither too (I don't know about slow resists, but tenacity/cc reduction has diminishing returns since it stacks multiplicatively, so one source of slow resist + one of tenacity > 2 of a single one in terms of overall distance travelled during the slow's nominal duration). Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/ Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game. With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q) How do you classify champions like Irelia and Jax then? Irelia tends to go sunfire too when picked competitively but that probably has more to do with the limited farm in a 1v2 lane than with her inherent role in teamfights.
Do the math yourself.
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On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game.
With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q)
A competitive 5s situations is completely different from solo que. That being said, I stand by what I say and if you think its trash advice I suggest you play some Renekton sometime.
[B]On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:[/BBut Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries.
Last edit: 2013-11-15 18:26:41
If the situation has regressed to the point where your backline is significantly weaker than theirs, the standard let your carries do their job doesn't work because you get shredded in the mean time if you do.
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On November 15 2013 18:48 Alaric wrote:Edit: ^ dang, I really need to watch the VoDs. Are they easy to find in English (as in OGN's youtube channel has English titles for them)? Which match was he played in? Sunfire first champs are such bitches to burst mages, they get 0 MR and still are so damn hard to kill. :< (Shen-Nasus-Renekton worst top laners as Viktor main, urgh. Riven's really close because of the stupid amount of healing her AD steroids give with minimal lifesteal, and her shield.) Sunfire is easier and faster to build than randuin's, which is important wrt early backs, and it passively increases your dps so against your lane opponent each second more needed to kill you thanks to the EHP translates into one more tick of damage. It quickly adds up, especially when you have sustain to synergise with the additional survivability. Renekton for example doesn't do that much damage when all his abilities are on cd and that's when you're supposed to outtrade him. But if he's got a sunfire cape it makes you take more damage for trying to slug it out with him over trading in bursts. And you can't outtrade him in bursts (nor even kill him considering his ult and then Sunfire's EHP). Go die in the fire of your own item Renek. :[ Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. Slow resist diminishes the potency of the slow, tenacity reduces the duration of the slow. They don't stack like that, and for example Sejuani's passive will help against Singed's Mega Adhesive while Tenacity will almost not at all. Obviously if you combine slow resist and tenacity it screws with stuff like Wither too (I don't know about slow resists, but tenacity/cc reduction has diminishing returns since it stacks multiplicatively, so one source of slow resist + one of tenacity > 2 of a single one in terms of overall distance travelled during the slow's nominal duration). Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/ Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game. With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q) How do you classify champions like Irelia and Jax then? Irelia tends to go sunfire too when picked competitively but that probably has more to do with the limited farm in a 1v2 lane than with her inherent role in teamfights.
Irelia is an assassin and Jax is a hyper-carry; they excel in fights by being a damage threat (Tri-force and Botrk are both extremely common on both) while being relatively tanky (omens, visage, ga, wits).
I don't like Irelia nor Jax is 1v2's, they excel in 1v1 lanes because they NEED the farm to fulfill their role.
On November 15 2013 18:57 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game.
With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q) A competitive 5s situations is completely different from solo que. That being said, I stand by what I say and if you think its trash advice I suggest you play some Renekton sometime.
Don't take it personal, you started the discussion yourself. I have played Renekton, i know quite a handful of diamond 1 top laners that play Renekton, so don't think I'm sitting here thinking i know everything just because I'm diamond 1 myself. I know you might think i could be talking bullshit, because my main role is support and that's fair, but i have gained quite a lot of knowledge from interacting with players in other roles than my own.
You learn stuff from solo queue, and yes I've seen Hydra rush before, but mostly those games are over before you ever get to team-fight, in which case the item(s) wouldn't make much of a difference in the first place.
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I never said rush hydra. I said it is sometimes reasonable to get it as a 3rd-6th item. There is a massive difference between those two statements. Contrast that to "There's no reason to build damage on renek." Which statement is more reasonable?
Brutalizer is core on Renekton for the cdr. I gave an example where I think Hydra is worthwhile, and a justification. Disagree with it you want, but Yango often talks about how people don't think about how they're itemizing and just build the same crap over and over without thought.
One such example of people not thinking in my opinion: what do when your backline has failed miserably (especially in solo que) but you personally are doing well What do you do? This is my proposed solution for one very specific case.
Also LW is overrated on Renekton. Your priority targets are never tanks. You are on the squishes more often than not and, having more raw damage tends to be way more valuable mid-late game. And the hydra active gives you more burst on your combo. Hydra also helps you have staying power in long fights in the event you do kill the priority targets.
Calling my advice straight up bad is ridiculous, I've play hundreds of games of Renekton and I'm not some completely random scrub who is just says build shit like phantom dancers on Hecarim.
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Well Arisen did say that, and that's where the discussion was coming from.
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But if you ever were to purchase hydra, it would only make sense in a snow ball situation. If you are to dump 3k gold in mid/late-game you're gonna sit on stupid items (pick-axe or vamp scepter, tiamat and then hydra) where you could just buy LW. I know Renekton's Slice and Dice give arpen, but i don't see it being big enough to not want LW as well for late-game, which means you gotta dump another 2300g before you can get the full potential of your hydra. By rushing it in lane, where it's more suitable to sit on rejuv+pickaxe+scepter or similar, you get a strong power-curve with your base stats and abilities (level 2 ultimate with hydra is devastating). You are snowballing, you are ahead in experience and base-stats so you're more tanky just by that and you don't need additional defenses yet.
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On November 15 2013 18:56 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:48 Alaric wrote:Edit: ^ dang, I really need to watch the VoDs. Are they easy to find in English (as in OGN's youtube channel has English titles for them)? Which match was he played in? Sunfire first champs are such bitches to burst mages, they get 0 MR and still are so damn hard to kill. :< (Shen-Nasus-Renekton worst top laners as Viktor main, urgh. Riven's really close because of the stupid amount of healing her AD steroids give with minimal lifesteal, and her shield.) Sunfire is easier and faster to build than randuin's, which is important wrt early backs, and it passively increases your dps so against your lane opponent each second more needed to kill you thanks to the EHP translates into one more tick of damage. It quickly adds up, especially when you have sustain to synergise with the additional survivability. Renekton for example doesn't do that much damage when all his abilities are on cd and that's when you're supposed to outtrade him. But if he's got a sunfire cape it makes you take more damage for trying to slug it out with him over trading in bursts. And you can't outtrade him in bursts (nor even kill him considering his ult and then Sunfire's EHP). Go die in the fire of your own item Renek. :[ On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. Slow resist diminishes the potency of the slow, tenacity reduces the duration of the slow. They don't stack like that, and for example Sejuani's passive will help against Singed's Mega Adhesive while Tenacity will almost not at all. Obviously if you combine slow resist and tenacity it screws with stuff like Wither too (I don't know about slow resists, but tenacity/cc reduction has diminishing returns since it stacks multiplicatively, so one source of slow resist + one of tenacity > 2 of a single one in terms of overall distance travelled during the slow's nominal duration). On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/ Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game. With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q) How do you classify champions like Irelia and Jax then? Irelia tends to go sunfire too when picked competitively but that probably has more to do with the limited farm in a 1v2 lane than with her inherent role in teamfights. Do the math yourself.
What I meant is that they apply on different stuff: Tenacity won't work on Singed's or Kog's slows, for example, because it only affects duration, which in these cases is tied to how long you spend in the slow field. Slow reduction, on the other hand, will help you walk out of it faster.
Also Tenacity is 35% across all sources, not 25% on Golem Spirit.
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I'm pretty sure sponkz has more experience in both solo queue and in competitive play than you do zer0, but I don't know your resume and you might be challenger eu on a paid pro team which is about the only way you'd beat him out in that regard...
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On November 15 2013 19:13 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I'm pretty sure sponkz has more experience in both solo queue and in competitive play than you do zer0, but I don't know your resume and you might be challenger eu on a paid pro team which is about the only way you'd beat him out in that regard...
Funnily enough, there's an unrelated z0r on EUW that's not me who is Diamond 1. My goal is to surpass him one day. That being said I have 1300 solo que games this season and about 130 Renekton games. Plat 2.
Also won games using this "buy damage after sufficiently tanky" mantra and more than a few times.
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Well it's ok to seperate yourself from the majority's verdict. I did that with Nunu, buying spectral wraith even after people found out ancient golem was better. It suited my play style, i raped tons of people with it, but I still advocate ancient golem to people that asks me for guidance on how you build him.
There has to be a seperation between personal play style and general play style and that's important to address in one's posts, because it will clarify what people are trying to say in the greater spectrum 
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"Brutalizer is core on renekton for the cdr" This is pretty meaningless, there's no reason to say that renekton NEEDS either. It is a good damage item for him however.
"Sunfire is bad lategame". This is pretty much always true because sunfire only gets worse as everyone gets more hp and the people who d on't have tons of magic resist and even more hp are the ones who have to be killed in a burst and won't survive more than a few seconds anyway. (Mostly the case, maybe if you're malphite or a fed as fuck tank in without much dps its worth getting sunfire late)
"Don't ever build damage on renekton" zer0das is right in that sometimes you want damage on renekton and its totally dependent on the game. In competitive games nearly none of the time are the backlines underfed because they play safe and farm all day and the junglers/top lane get fucked over by ganks/laneswaps/roaming/farm priority/etc.
Getting hydra early is generally a bad idea because that's when you need your tank items to get tanky (health is super important early on before you get that last 600 hp or so from levels and extra hp from your ult ranks), however later on its a good bet, on melees its usually just a better version of BT because your AD scaling doesn't beat out the 1.0 AD scaling nuke on hydra.
I'd like to note that in the situation that their backline is strong building damage is only good if you are confident in your ability to gangbang them with your team, otherwise building balls out tank might be the best and then if their tanks die first you can still provide your CC to clean up even if you're low hp.
In the situation that your backline is weak building damage is usually a good bet however. (It's your best chance to win assuming that your gold levels are the same so it's not a game that's just fucked in general)
"Buy damage after sufficiently tanky" is a decent rule because renekton's utility comes nearly all from his damage meaning if your damage isn't high enough to threaten their backline suddenly you become nearly redundant. (your cc is still important because any squishy will die in a 2s stun, but other champs can do better here, but this is only when you are doing badly). Also getting tank items tends to fall off anyway when their multiplicative scaling +%penetration kicks, if you have 4 tank items 1 more isn't that much of an increase while getting your 1st damage item is like 50% more damage so you kill them a lot faster.
TLDR: Only a sith deals in absolutes
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What are the current thoughts on Lulu? I just played her for the first time last night (and through tonight) and my god, she feels like she can be pretty strong. I think I finally found my backup support when my Nami is banned/picked.
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On November 15 2013 19:12 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:56 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 18:48 Alaric wrote:Edit: ^ dang, I really need to watch the VoDs. Are they easy to find in English (as in OGN's youtube channel has English titles for them)? Which match was he played in? Sunfire first champs are such bitches to burst mages, they get 0 MR and still are so damn hard to kill. :< (Shen-Nasus-Renekton worst top laners as Viktor main, urgh. Riven's really close because of the stupid amount of healing her AD steroids give with minimal lifesteal, and her shield.) Sunfire is easier and faster to build than randuin's, which is important wrt early backs, and it passively increases your dps so against your lane opponent each second more needed to kill you thanks to the EHP translates into one more tick of damage. It quickly adds up, especially when you have sustain to synergise with the additional survivability. Renekton for example doesn't do that much damage when all his abilities are on cd and that's when you're supposed to outtrade him. But if he's got a sunfire cape it makes you take more damage for trying to slug it out with him over trading in bursts. And you can't outtrade him in bursts (nor even kill him considering his ult and then Sunfire's EHP). Go die in the fire of your own item Renek. :[ On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. Slow resist diminishes the potency of the slow, tenacity reduces the duration of the slow. They don't stack like that, and for example Sejuani's passive will help against Singed's Mega Adhesive while Tenacity will almost not at all. Obviously if you combine slow resist and tenacity it screws with stuff like Wither too (I don't know about slow resists, but tenacity/cc reduction has diminishing returns since it stacks multiplicatively, so one source of slow resist + one of tenacity > 2 of a single one in terms of overall distance travelled during the slow's nominal duration). On November 15 2013 18:34 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/ Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game. With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q) How do you classify champions like Irelia and Jax then? Irelia tends to go sunfire too when picked competitively but that probably has more to do with the limited farm in a 1v2 lane than with her inherent role in teamfights. Do the math yourself. What I meant is that they apply on different stuff: Tenacity won't work on Singed's or Kog's slows, for example, because it only affects duration, which in these cases is tied to how long you spend in the slow field. Slow reduction, on the other hand, will help you walk out of it faster. Also Tenacity is 35% across all sources, not 25% on Golem Spirit.
Darn. I should've doublechecked my tenacity. I had it right in one of my other posts.
I thought you meant "they don't stack like that" to mean my math was wrong.
While Singed's goop and Kog's slow don't get affected by tenacity I didn't say that tenacity did anything to them. You're putting words in my mouth.
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On November 15 2013 20:36 Slayer91 wrote:
sucks in lane though
I thought she was stronk in lane. What about that poke/poly/shield/ulti?
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that combo takes like half your mana and most of it is too short range to effectively use in a non all in
her q poke is a very slow animation so its easy to dodge
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I find her pretty good at level 1-2 if you just punish every last hit with at least an auto, though. It's a bit like Orianna, they wanna last hit? Shiny orbs to the face! And if they don't retaliate, Q them for the slow and hit 2-3 autos more then back off.
Then again people may just be terrible where I stand. Which kinda happens a bunch.
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EPT
