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On November 15 2013 16:39 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 16:13 JonnyLaw wrote:
If you're buying hydra do you really need more aoe or wave clear?
For nearly the same price you can have Warden's mail, giants belt and a negatron cloak.
2650 vs 2720
45 armor vs 50 armor and cold steel passive
40 mr vs sunfire passive
This is also at a point in the game where ad's are starting to hurt so the warden's passive and then randiuns are helpful. In addition you can build SV or w/e mr item instead of finishing if they have scary ap dmg.
Funfire is nice and all but you're getting it too late and hydra already provides a lot of the utility you're looking for in sunfire cape. The utility in sunfire isn't really the waveclear,at least for renekton. If you have sunfire, it synergyzes very well with your ultimate so in teamfights midgame you gain a whole lot of EHP vs ad's and a good aura damage if you can just sit on their face; it makes it really easy to zone any ad out of a fight midgame. Of course, as time goes on wardens mail/randuins will be more efficient because the ad's will have enough damage to really hurt you then, I just dont know when that point will really be.
If you're going sunfire first on almost any top laner the wave clear helps since your base damage from abilities will only clear waves for so long.
If you already have hydra the extra burn dmg means nothing and just getting tankier is more important I think. You're getting close to building core armor/mr items by skipping sunfire as a second item. Meh, depends on the game.
Edit - I shouldn't say it means nothing but it doesn't add a lot in comparison. Unless you're crazy fed that two item timing is what 25 minutes or later. That's 6k gold plus boots, wards, pots and maybe a dshield or dblade.
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On November 15 2013 16:43 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:45 Arisen wrote:
I posted this a while back but never got any answers before it was buried. When does sunfire stop being gold efficient? Champs like shen, renekton, etc sometimes rush this item, but if you dont buy this first, and instead buy some damage, is it still gold efficient to buy it after your damage?
For me, I play a lot of renekton, and I've taken to rushing hydra in a LOT of matchups if I'm even/ahead where i used to rush sunfire in most matchups. Now, if I have bought a hydra (or some other damage item; hexdrinker, brutalizer, etc), at what point does sunfire stop being efficient for the gold spent? Even if it is efficient after hydra or w/e damage you are doing, when does it stop being worth the buy? It definitely is very powerful midgame for teamfights, but falls of a bit later, I don't want to waste the gold on somethign that is only marginally useful when I could be going for spirit visage/randuins.
This isn't just for renekton, I'm sure other people have similar questions for shen, lee sin, etc.
thanks for the input
I believe last time you asked everyone was more concerned with your hydra. There's no reason to build damage on renek. If you feel like cape falls off you can always replace it when you got 6 items.
Noone responded at all last time, there was some argument about why renekton is such a popular pick or somethign
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On November 15 2013 16:43 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:53 Amui wrote:Just tried it.Results are accurate for the last couple of months, can see the steep decline from right before school started til now, ~15 games played in the last month. Before that though, IIRC I wiped my computer about then, so not that many results. Still, pretty intersting. Most played -ori 32 games, then renek with 19. Meta OP. I dun like this. 723 total games played since 22nd May estimated 21,833 minutes of play time. Holy fuck And that's just my laptop, i stopped playing on it 2 months ago LOL
2,390 files scanned, 1,554 games played for 43,150 minutes, 691 games spectated for 14,477 minutes, 13,755 total players.
Apparently this is over a 2 year period starting Nov 2011, and not counting about 5 months or so when I wasn't at home.
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On November 15 2013 16:43 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:45 Arisen wrote:
I posted this a while back but never got any answers before it was buried. When does sunfire stop being gold efficient? Champs like shen, renekton, etc sometimes rush this item, but if you dont buy this first, and instead buy some damage, is it still gold efficient to buy it after your damage?
For me, I play a lot of renekton, and I've taken to rushing hydra in a LOT of matchups if I'm even/ahead where i used to rush sunfire in most matchups. Now, if I have bought a hydra (or some other damage item; hexdrinker, brutalizer, etc), at what point does sunfire stop being efficient for the gold spent? Even if it is efficient after hydra or w/e damage you are doing, when does it stop being worth the buy? It definitely is very powerful midgame for teamfights, but falls of a bit later, I don't want to waste the gold on somethign that is only marginally useful when I could be going for spirit visage/randuins.
This isn't just for renekton, I'm sure other people have similar questions for shen, lee sin, etc.
thanks for the input
I believe last time you asked everyone was more concerned with your hydra. There's no reason to build damage on renek. If you feel like cape falls off you can always replace it when you got 6 items.
People really overstate stuff like this. There is not "no reason" to build damage items on Renekton. Brutalizer is pretty core on him and there are situations where hydra is fine and dandy.
Voy hates getting sunfire cape late because "it is flat damage" and if you're literally sitting on top of their entire team for a fight, you probably should be rushing it anyway. If you're on a champion that tends to get kited a lot though (or dart in and out), there's probably much better items to get. Lee is a good example- I feel like there's much better items available for him. If you don't rush it, I have a hard time justifying it past the 2nd item or so, regardless of the champion.
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Hydra is a luxury buy imo. Your entire teams has to be winning to justify 3k gold expense in pure offense.
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In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights.
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On November 15 2013 15:53 Amui wrote:Just tried it.Results are accurate for the last couple of months, can see the steep decline from right before school started til now, ~15 games played in the last month. Before that though, IIRC I wiped my computer about then, so not that many results. Still, pretty intersting. Most played -ori 32 games, then renek with 19. Meta OP.
Apparently I'm good at this game.
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't even know what I did wrong lol.
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On November 15 2013 17:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Hydra is a luxury buy imo. Your entire teams has to be winning to justify 3k gold expense in pure offense.
I don't think this is true at all. In fact when your team is faltering but you are personally doing well, that is probably a better time to get hydra. Example:
1. Your backline is relatively weak, but you are strong (and the rest of your frontline is).
2. The enemy frontline is weak, but their backline is really strong.
Game comes down to 2 things:
1. Can you kill the enemy teams backline quickly enough?
2. Can your backline survive when you abandon them to deal with the weaker enemy frontline?
If you can get both to work out, you're usually golden and will win. There are many, many games where I've had to dive an adc with a diving buddy and quickly kill the adc because they are... Vayne for instance. All the defense in the world won't help you against Vayne, you have to erase her or she will kill you eventually.
It's similar to the argument I put forth in the Sej thread. It doesn't do you much good to live through a fight if the rest of your team dies in the interim and 4 enemy team members survive, so often times building more damage (if you're already surviving a decent length of time) makes a hell of a lot more sense because you can (potentially) eliminate high threat targets more effectively than other people on your team.
If your team is already ahead, stack defense away, because your backline is probably obliterating all of the enemy team.
Edit: to be absolutely clear, I'm talking about after you already have 2-4 defensive items. Not rushing hydra.
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On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights.
When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough.
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On November 15 2013 18:08 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Hydra is a luxury buy imo. Your entire teams has to be winning to justify 3k gold expense in pure offense. I don't think this is true at all. In fact when your team is faltering but you are personally doing well, that is probably a better time to get hydra. Example: 1. Your backline is relatively weak, but you are strong (and the rest of your frontline is). 2. The enemy frontline is weak, but their backline is really strong. Game comes down to 2 things: 1. Can you kill the enemy teams backline quickly enough? 2. Can your backline survive when you abandon them to deal with the weaker enemy frontline? If you can get both to work out, you're usually golden and will win. There are many, many games where I've had to dive an adc with a diving buddy and quickly kill the adc because they are... Vayne for instance. All the defense in the world won't help you against Vayne, you have to erase her or she will kill you eventually. It's similar to the argument I put forth in the Sej thread. It doesn't do you much good to live through a fight if the rest of your team dies in the interim and 4 enemy team members survive, so often times building more damage (if you're already surviving a decent length of time) makes a hell of a lot more sense because you can (potentially) eliminate high threat targets more effectively than other people on your team. If your team is already ahead, stack defense away, because your backline is probably obliterating all of the enemy team. Edit: to be absolutely clear, I'm talking about after you already have 2-4 defensive items. Not rushing hydra.
Idk, I just see SRO do it in his games a lot (he posts a daily renekton game every day on his channel, solorenektononly if you want to check it out), and I usually win lane and have trouble because some other lane will do poorly so I want to be able to dive in and R> - E- empowered W (hydra)>auto>Q>auto>E to kill their guy quickly. Maybe I'm just better off building tanky, idk; I just have a ton of trouble in solo Q turning an advantage in my lane into a win.
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On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough.
But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries.
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On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries.
At top level play, yes you're absolutely right - it's better to be tanky and disruptive so damage items like Hydra aren't generally worth it since the enemy team will have enough peel so you die too fast if you invest too heavily in damage. In solo queue, death is best cc. You will often have the opportunity to go in, gib someone with a bruiser while not dying.
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On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries.
Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/
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On November 15 2013 18:31 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries. Doesn't always work that well if you've ever played solo Q :/
Maybe that's because people like zer0das go around and think you're supposed to build 3k gold offensive items as a bruiser to succeed. Bad habbits creates bad play styles, bad play styles results in wrongfully understanding of the nature of the game.
With that said, I've played a fuck ton of solo queue, and played with multiple Vayne's and Renekton's and this is the general assumption of how those champions are meant to be played in more skilled environments (aka. not solo Q)
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On November 15 2013 18:26 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:10 zer0das wrote:On November 15 2013 18:06 Osmoses wrote:
In what situation is blowing 3k on hydra fine and dandy for Renekton? In what scneario is it ever better to get hydra than health or resistance? He clears fast with base damage and sunfire, and 3k that you didn't spend on defense is just going to get you killed in teamfights. When you actually have to kill a priority target, mostly by yourself (with maybe a diving buddy). Stack all the armor and you want against a fed Vayne, if you're not a legitimate damage threat, she's just going to obliterate you. And no, base damage is not enough. But Renekton's job isn't to KILL Vayne but to CONTROL Vayne, allowing your CARRIES (e.g ap and ad) to kill her! As any front line bruiser your job is to survive, control and maintain the front line while your carries smash theirs, allowing you to in the end, kill the opposing carries.
Or you can just walk in, do 3k damage to Vayne then walk out.
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Blowing 3k on a hydra doesn't make you a legitimate damage threat as Renekton, esp against a "fed vayne", it will just make you die faster.
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Yeah if you play against extremely incompetent retards then sure, use whatever method you want. I don't wanna spread any legitimately bad advice on how you're supposed to play certain roles, but if you wanna do that, i cannot stop you. Just remember that Team Liquid is pretty fucking big and it's not only the users that write on this sub-forum that reads the posts here, it's also lurkers.
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SKT1K just banned Olaf in Champions Winter, and Monte said it was to block Jungle Olaf.
I don't suppose anyone knows how they build and skill him?
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Dunno why but when I try the parse things it only checks my games from July until now :o
17,815 minutes played is quite a lot in 4 months though...
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On November 15 2013 18:41 Loving Memory wrote:
SKT1K just banned Olaf in Champions Winter, and Monte said it was to block Jungle Olaf.
I don't suppose anyone knows how they build and skill him?
lvl 3 gank. Flash then Q. If you hit the Q, then they 100% die, flash or not.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CFcTyUy.png)
