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On November 15 2013 08:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 08:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:On November 15 2013 07:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Why? Intuitively, a slow and a speed boost of the same percentage canceling each other makes logical sense. From a gameplay perspective, it's clearly not a problem for MS-based champs to get a little bet of help. So why do we need a more convoluted game mechanic when the simple, intuitive one suffices? If every mechanic in the game cancelled out with other mechanics then there wouldn't be any little intricacies to the game. Right now we can play around the knowledge that slows are as strong as movement speed buffs and I'm fine with that. Someone has to lose out here. Either the melees with no gap closers have to feel horrible when they get kited or ranged champions have to feel horrible situations where their cc does nothing.On November 15 2013 07:59 eBagus wrote:
Does reinstalling the game mess up your stats? Yes. I have this huge spike in October 19th in terms of number of hours played. That was the day after my last day of work lol. + Show Spoiler + I kind of disagree with you on this point because I feel like there are a ton of champions with slows that are kind of randomly in their kit, and not factored into the champs' balance much. Examples would be: Aatrox E, Cassio W, Galio Q, Gragas E, Kass E, Kha6 W, and thats just the 1st half of the alphabet. If you took out those slows, how much additional damage would you give those champs? 1%? 2%?
It's random because it adds complexity to the game so abilities aren't all the same. Volibear's movement speed boost also provides a flip. Udyr's speed boost also stuns and is spammable. Trundle's gives attack speed and regeneration. If you took out those effects it'd make the game more boring. If Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring.
On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough.
Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive.
You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows.
But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HSDGepP.png)
wait what (qualified for a series in dominion)
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On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 08:34 cLutZ wrote:On November 15 2013 08:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:On November 15 2013 07:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Why? Intuitively, a slow and a speed boost of the same percentage canceling each other makes logical sense. From a gameplay perspective, it's clearly not a problem for MS-based champs to get a little bet of help. So why do we need a more convoluted game mechanic when the simple, intuitive one suffices? If every mechanic in the game cancelled out with other mechanics then there wouldn't be any little intricacies to the game. Right now we can play around the knowledge that slows are as strong as movement speed buffs and I'm fine with that. Someone has to lose out here. Either the melees with no gap closers have to feel horrible when they get kited or ranged champions have to feel horrible situations where their cc does nothing.On November 15 2013 07:59 eBagus wrote:
Does reinstalling the game mess up your stats? Yes. I have this huge spike in October 19th in terms of number of hours played. That was the day after my last day of work lol. + Show Spoiler + I kind of disagree with you on this point because I feel like there are a ton of champions with slows that are kind of randomly in their kit, and not factored into the champs' balance much. Examples would be: Aatrox E, Cassio W, Galio Q, Gragas E, Kass E, Kha6 W, and thats just the 1st half of the alphabet. If you took out those slows, how much additional damage would you give those champs? 1%? 2%? It's random because it adds complexity to the game so abilities aren't all the same. Volibear's movement speed boost also provides a flip. Udyr's speed boost also stuns and is spammable. Trundle's gives attack speed and regeneration. If you took out those effects it'd make the game more boring. If Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring. Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place.
But that seems like the problem. People who have speed boosts mostly have them as a necessity. However, champs with slows seem to often have them tacked onto their kit to, as you said, "make it more interesting." The three speed boosts you gave as examples are basically necessities. It is true that, "if Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring[,]", but to me it seems like randomly adding a slow is not a good fix, because as a result of all of the "flavor" slows in the game, MS boosts are fairly weak, and to be honest, melle champs need to go full tank for teamfights because they can't really autoattack regardless. Its like Tristana randomly being a Mundo counter because of her E having grievous wounds.
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On November 15 2013 10:54 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:wait what (qualified for a series in dominion)
Are you on any ranked teams?
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On November 15 2013 11:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:34 cLutZ wrote:On November 15 2013 08:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:On November 15 2013 07:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Why? Intuitively, a slow and a speed boost of the same percentage canceling each other makes logical sense. From a gameplay perspective, it's clearly not a problem for MS-based champs to get a little bet of help. So why do we need a more convoluted game mechanic when the simple, intuitive one suffices? If every mechanic in the game cancelled out with other mechanics then there wouldn't be any little intricacies to the game. Right now we can play around the knowledge that slows are as strong as movement speed buffs and I'm fine with that. Someone has to lose out here. Either the melees with no gap closers have to feel horrible when they get kited or ranged champions have to feel horrible situations where their cc does nothing.On November 15 2013 07:59 eBagus wrote:
Does reinstalling the game mess up your stats? Yes. I have this huge spike in October 19th in terms of number of hours played. That was the day after my last day of work lol. + Show Spoiler + I kind of disagree with you on this point because I feel like there are a ton of champions with slows that are kind of randomly in their kit, and not factored into the champs' balance much. Examples would be: Aatrox E, Cassio W, Galio Q, Gragas E, Kass E, Kha6 W, and thats just the 1st half of the alphabet. If you took out those slows, how much additional damage would you give those champs? 1%? 2%? It's random because it adds complexity to the game so abilities aren't all the same. Volibear's movement speed boost also provides a flip. Udyr's speed boost also stuns and is spammable. Trundle's gives attack speed and regeneration. If you took out those effects it'd make the game more boring. If Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring. On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. But that seems like the problem. People who have speed boosts mostly have them as a necessity. However, champs with slows seem to often have them tacked onto their kit to, as you said, "make it more interesting." The three speed boosts you gave as examples are basically necessities. It is true that, "if Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring[,]", but to me it seems like randomly adding a slow is not a good fix, because as a result of all of the "flavor" slows in the game, MS boosts are fairly weak, and to be honest, melle champs need to go full tank for teamfights because they can't really autoattack regardless. Its like Tristana randomly being a Mundo counter because of her E having grievous wounds.
Galio's Q is not a good example here, his kit is one of the most cohesive in the game as far as tying in with who he is. Speed boost on E to speed him and his allies away from danger, slow on Q to delay attackers, W and R pretty obvious.
The melee slows you listed earlier all make sense in the context of what the champ was initially designed to do, how can Aatrox, Gragas, or Kass effectively use their AA enhancing abilities without being able to slow enemies? Even for Cassio you can make the argument that W's slow is pretty important since she has serious trouble getting bruisers out of her face.
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On November 15 2013 11:30 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 10:54 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:wait what (qualified for a series in dominion) Are you on any ranked teams?
oooh, that explains it
so i guess they played without me
jerks
i joined the team and have never played on it so i completely forgot
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It's a Botswana Internet sandwich with cancer for buns.
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in the past three ranked games i've had i've had a support zilean, shen, and ziggs successively
new meta inc?
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I posted this a while back but never got any answers before it was buried. When does sunfire stop being gold efficient? Champs like shen, renekton, etc sometimes rush this item, but if you dont buy this first, and instead buy some damage, is it still gold efficient to buy it after your damage?
For me, I play a lot of renekton, and I've taken to rushing hydra in a LOT of matchups if I'm even/ahead where i used to rush sunfire in most matchups. Now, if I have bought a hydra (or some other damage item; hexdrinker, brutalizer, etc), at what point does sunfire stop being efficient for the gold spent? Even if it is efficient after hydra or w/e damage you are doing, when does it stop being worth the buy? It definitely is very powerful midgame for teamfights, but falls of a bit later, I don't want to waste the gold on somethign that is only marginally useful when I could be going for spirit visage/randuins.
This isn't just for renekton, I'm sure other people have similar questions for shen, lee sin, etc.
thanks for the input
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Just tried it.Results are accurate for the last couple of months, can see the steep decline from right before school started til now, ~15 games played in the last month. Before that though, IIRC I wiped my computer about then, so not that many results.
Still, pretty intersting. Most played -ori 32 games, then renek with 19. Meta OP.
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That strikes me as very difficult to quantify. I hate the "it's all situational" answer and I think we can do better than that, but a precise answer is just not going to happen.
A couple factors I think are worth considering here: first, bruisers and tanks gain mr per level, so effectiveness declines as a function of both time and the hp they build, which we may presume is a function of time, so the decline in effectiveness against them should be exponential until six items or level 18.
Second, as the game goes on, the healing per second rate for ad carries skyrockets, since it's a linear function of their exponentially increasing dps. This has the effect of devaluing damage over time - so the effectiveness against ads also decreases exponentially. Additionally, there's the practical consideration that they'll just kill you very quickly later which means less sunfire damage.
Mages, however, don't seem to be subject to any of these conditions. In addition, a large part of the cost is hp, which is solid in preventing a Mage from removing you from fights. So I would say the drop-off is slow in coming but extremely sharp vs most of a team, but largely does not occur vs ap.
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Wait...
Xes is Auswahl?
Fuckin hell...
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It would be a lot easier to follow some of the discussion on here if everyone had the same name here than they have in LoL. Alas, we can't all be me or Neo. Or red, or Ketara(h), or sylverfyre or Kissblade.. actually that's about where my list of easy names ends.
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If you're buying hydra do you really need more aoe or wave clear?
For nearly the same price you can have Warden's mail, giants belt and a negatron cloak.
2650 vs 2720
45 armor vs 50 armor and cold steel passive
40 mr vs sunfire passive
This is also at a point in the game where ad's are starting to hurt so the warden's passive and then randiuns are helpful. In addition you can build SV or w/e mr item instead of finishing if they have scary ap dmg.
Funfire is nice and all but you're getting it too late and hydra already provides a lot of the utility you're looking for in sunfire cape.
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I think sunfire is good as a first item, especially if you already have good base AoE damage. How many times have we seen a renekton finish sunfire at like the 13-15 minute mark, head down for a dragon, and literally dive 4 people burning them all to death between his ultimate and sunfire. There's a timing where the EHP of sunfire outscales DPS from items, but the burn damage from sunfire is still relevant.
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On November 15 2013 16:13 JonnyLaw wrote:
If you're buying hydra do you really need more aoe or wave clear?
For nearly the same price you can have Warden's mail, giants belt and a negatron cloak.
2650 vs 2720
45 armor vs 50 armor and cold steel passive
40 mr vs sunfire passive
This is also at a point in the game where ad's are starting to hurt so the warden's passive and then randiuns are helpful. In addition you can build SV or w/e mr item instead of finishing if they have scary ap dmg.
Funfire is nice and all but you're getting it too late and hydra already provides a lot of the utility you're looking for in sunfire cape.
The utility in sunfire isn't really the waveclear,at least for renekton. If you have sunfire, it synergyzes very well with your ultimate so in teamfights midgame you gain a whole lot of EHP vs ad's and a good aura damage if you can just sit on their face; it makes it really easy to zone any ad out of a fight midgame. Of course, as time goes on wardens mail/randuins will be more efficient because the ad's will have enough damage to really hurt you then, I just dont know when that point will really be.
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On November 15 2013 11:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 10:34 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 08:34 cLutZ wrote:On November 15 2013 08:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 15 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:On November 15 2013 07:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Why? Intuitively, a slow and a speed boost of the same percentage canceling each other makes logical sense. From a gameplay perspective, it's clearly not a problem for MS-based champs to get a little bet of help. So why do we need a more convoluted game mechanic when the simple, intuitive one suffices? If every mechanic in the game cancelled out with other mechanics then there wouldn't be any little intricacies to the game. Right now we can play around the knowledge that slows are as strong as movement speed buffs and I'm fine with that. Someone has to lose out here. Either the melees with no gap closers have to feel horrible when they get kited or ranged champions have to feel horrible situations where their cc does nothing.On November 15 2013 07:59 eBagus wrote:
Does reinstalling the game mess up your stats? Yes. I have this huge spike in October 19th in terms of number of hours played. That was the day after my last day of work lol. + Show Spoiler + I kind of disagree with you on this point because I feel like there are a ton of champions with slows that are kind of randomly in their kit, and not factored into the champs' balance much. Examples would be: Aatrox E, Cassio W, Galio Q, Gragas E, Kass E, Kha6 W, and thats just the 1st half of the alphabet. If you took out those slows, how much additional damage would you give those champs? 1%? 2%? It's random because it adds complexity to the game so abilities aren't all the same. Volibear's movement speed boost also provides a flip. Udyr's speed boost also stuns and is spammable. Trundle's gives attack speed and regeneration. If you took out those effects it'd make the game more boring. If Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring. On November 15 2013 08:39 thenexusp wrote:
They could just make "slow resist" stronger than it currently is and it would solve the "melees that rely on +MS to close gaps" problem without a redesign of fundamental game mechanics. In fact, you could get an "additive MS slow" effect somewhat easily if you made a champion with a +%MS ability that also gave an appropriate amount of % slow resist.
I feel like slow resist was an interesting mechanic they introduced in s3 that they didn't really push far enough. Slow resists might already be strong enough. I take back what I said about Janna w being better than Sejuani's passive. You get 25% from boots of swiftness and 15% from masteries. That means that only 64% of a slow gets applied. Then if you get ancient golem that's 25% tenacity and 15% crowd control reduction from masteries for 64% CC reduction on slows. But I don't like having to build boots of swiftness on champions. Unless someone has a frozen mallet or they're Ashe, they're probably not going to keep you in place. But that seems like the problem. People who have speed boosts mostly have them as a necessity. However, champs with slows seem to often have them tacked onto their kit to, as you said, "make it more interesting." The three speed boosts you gave as examples are basically necessities. It is true that, "if Aatrox E, Cassio W, and Galio Q only gave damage they'd be more boring[,]", but to me it seems like randomly adding a slow is not a good fix, because as a result of all of the "flavor" slows in the game, MS boosts are fairly weak, and to be honest, melle champs need to go full tank for teamfights because they can't really autoattack regardless. Its like Tristana randomly being a Mundo counter because of her E having grievous wounds.
Tristana might be a Mundo counter but that's going to happen in a game of 100 champions and it's only a soft counter. Mundo isn't just his regen.
If champs have speed boosts out of necessity then there are other champs that have gap closers or range as a necessity.
Finally Aldrovandi makes a good point that the slows are necessary on some champions to let them make use of their enhanced autos. Galio's slow seems out of place though. Dunno wtf Riot was smoking when they made that.
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On November 15 2013 15:53 Amui wrote:Just tried it.Results are accurate for the last couple of months, can see the steep decline from right before school started til now, ~15 games played in the last month. Before that though, IIRC I wiped my computer about then, so not that many results. Still, pretty intersting. Most played -ori 32 games, then renek with 19. Meta OP.
I dun like this. 723 total games played since 22nd May estimated 21,833 minutes of play time. Holy fuck
And that's just my laptop, i stopped playing on it 2 months ago LOL
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On November 15 2013 15:45 Arisen wrote:
I posted this a while back but never got any answers before it was buried. When does sunfire stop being gold efficient? Champs like shen, renekton, etc sometimes rush this item, but if you dont buy this first, and instead buy some damage, is it still gold efficient to buy it after your damage?
For me, I play a lot of renekton, and I've taken to rushing hydra in a LOT of matchups if I'm even/ahead where i used to rush sunfire in most matchups. Now, if I have bought a hydra (or some other damage item; hexdrinker, brutalizer, etc), at what point does sunfire stop being efficient for the gold spent? Even if it is efficient after hydra or w/e damage you are doing, when does it stop being worth the buy? It definitely is very powerful midgame for teamfights, but falls of a bit later, I don't want to waste the gold on somethign that is only marginally useful when I could be going for spirit visage/randuins.
This isn't just for renekton, I'm sure other people have similar questions for shen, lee sin, etc.
thanks for the input
I believe last time you asked everyone was more concerned with your hydra. There's no reason to build damage on renek. If you feel like cape falls off you can always replace it when you got 6 items.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Wjqgj2o.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4H2UmuXl.png)
