|
On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it.
We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better.
|
On November 15 2013 06:29 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it. We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better.
What champpool has changed since nerfed ibg [when blue ez was super popular] to post triforce changes?
you make the argument champs become invalid because of ibg, yet in this current meta of no more ibg we still don't see the return of any of these champs
|
On November 15 2013 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 06:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it. We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better. What champpool has changed since nerfed ibg [when blue ez was super popular] to post triforce changes? you make the argument champs become invalid because of ibg, yet in this current meta of no more ibg we still don't see the return of any of these champs
IBG Nidalee is like...3rd tier Nidalee as far as popularity.
|
On November 15 2013 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 06:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it. We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better. What champpool has changed since nerfed ibg [when blue ez was super popular] to post triforce changes? you make the argument champs become invalid because of ibg, yet in this current meta of no more ibg we still don't see the return of any of these champs
Nasus?
|
On November 15 2013 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 06:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it. We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better. What champpool has changed since nerfed ibg [when blue ez was super popular] to post triforce changes? you make the argument champs become invalid because of ibg, yet in this current meta of no more ibg we still don't see the return of any of these champs
Cuz the item was only over frequently built on ez (who has peculiar synergy with sheen) because it's basically not that good. In games where that happened, yes, it shut out a class of already unpopular characters. I expect if they hadn't realized gauntlet is maybe not such a great idea they would've buffed it by now.
|
Although there are people on this forum who think he sucks anyway, Hecarim being nerfed into the ground is also relevant when talking IBG champions not being played.
|
United States47024 Posts
If Riot wants to help out "kite-able" melees, then the easiest way for them to do that is to revamp the MS formula. The current movespeed formula is just stacked as fuck against these champs because it both punishes stacking movement speed through the diminishing returns formula while also effectively scaling slows against higher MS targets because slows are calculated as % total MS while MS boosts are % of base.
There's like zero reason for this to be the case, and not only does it punish a heavily underplayed group of champions, but the mechanic itself is incredibly opaque and unintuitive with no real gameplay benefit.
|
Urgot and Mordekaiser were my first champs. Much wuv.
|
It's a a little weird too because it looks like the anti slow masteries and swifties are both attempts to address that, but they're so roundabout, and so far, ineffective.
|
United States47024 Posts
What's more hilarious is that because slows overpower speed boosts so much, Riot had to introduce the diminishing returns formula for stacking slows, which is even more complicated and unintuitive than the MS diminishing returns formula and slows/speed boosts stacking differently.
|
On November 15 2013 06:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 06:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On November 15 2013 05:59 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 05:56 thenexusp wrote:On November 15 2013 05:54 UniversalSnip wrote:On November 15 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, when is IBG going to get a buff? Triforce pretty much eliminated the item. Good, it's one of the worst ideas they had in season 3. Let it sink into the garbage heap, never to be seen again, along with other concoctions like executioners calling. To be fair no one ever bought executioner's calling before or after s3 No one is willing to pay the cost of the grievous wounds in terms of how slot-inefficient the item is, but on the other hand if buying grievous wounds didn't actually cost anything then champs that rely on healing/regen would be nerfed too hard. Yeah, I'm comparing IBG to that level of design badness. It was only problematic on Ez, in terms of balancing, and even then blue build ez was not op'd after the IBG nerfs, just overwhelmingly popular due to the type of play style that evolved out of it. We should be thankful the item is basically terrible because it would be intolerable otherwise. On ranged heroes it's only purpose is to remove kitable melees from the game, a group that already struggles so hard mid to late game. On melee it produces exactly the obnoxious permaslow experience skarner was basically redesigned to ditch. There's a reason they're letting it be overshadowed by items that actually make the game better. What champpool has changed since nerfed ibg [when blue ez was super popular] to post triforce changes? you make the argument champs become invalid because of ibg, yet in this current meta of no more ibg we still don't see the return of any of these champs IBG Nidalee is like...3rd tier Nidalee as far as popularity.
Was talking about champ pools that were affected by playing against ibg, not ibg users.
On the nasus note, a lot of that has to do with SV changes and less so ibg seeing less play.
|
On November 15 2013 06:45 TheYango wrote:
If Riot wants to help out "kite-able" melees, then the easiest way for them to do that is to revamp the MS formula. The current movespeed formula is just stacked as fuck against these champs because it both punishes stacking movement speed through the diminishing returns formula while also effectively scaling slows against higher MS targets because slows are calculated as % total MS while MS boosts are % of base.
There's like zero reason for this to be the case, and not only does it punish a heavily underplayed group of champions, but the mechanic itself is incredibly opaque and unintuitive with no real gameplay benefit.
I can understand why the mechanic is in place. If you use Kayle's slow on a charging volibear with movement speed runes then the Volibear will not seem much slower unless the slow works on Voli's total movement speed.
Movement speed penalties are an annoying mechanic though and I don't understand their purpose.
|
United States47024 Posts
The idea that slows don't feel impactful enough unless they act on % total is just stupid, because Riot had to add a ton of restrictions on stacking slows (no stacking slows from same source type, stacking slows of different types stack diminishingly with additional slows applied multiplicately with half effectiveness AND a soft floor at 220 ms) because slows were TOO strong.
|
On November 15 2013 06:50 TheYango wrote:
What's more hilarious is that because slows overpower speed boosts so much, Riot had to introduce the diminishing returns formula for stacking slows, which is even more complicated and unintuitive than the MS diminishing returns formula and slows/speed boosts stacking differently.
I agree that the system for calculating MS and for determining slow % is completely dumb.
But I think just changing the system of MS will not particularly help the "Bruiser" champions because most of them don't build MS items anyway. ADC's do though, so I would say the MS system is actually mostly stacked against ADCs and I think that the system is actually designed to keep ADC MS in check.
|
On November 15 2013 06:57 TheYango wrote:
The idea that slows don't feel impactful enough unless they act on % total is just stupid, because Riot had to add a ton of restrictions on stacking slows (no stacking slows from same source type, stacking slows of different types stack diminishingly with additional slows applied multiplicately with half effectiveness AND a soft floor at 220 ms) because slows were TOO strong.
That's for stacking slows. If an individual slow is too weak then you as an individual contribute nothing.
If stacking slows had no penalties then multiple slows might as well be a CC chain stun.
|
United States47024 Posts
It's not just itemization, though. The fact that slows are % total and boosts are % base means that minor boosts from skills, masteries, and runes (all of which ARE used by bruisers) are basically nullified when slows come into play. They don't even serve the function of "canceling out" the slows applied to them because slows fundamentally are more powerful than an MS boost of the same percentage based on this.
|
On November 15 2013 07:03 TheYango wrote:
It's not just itemization, though. The fact that slows are % total and boosts are % base means that minor boosts from skills, masteries, and runes (all of which ARE used by bruisers) are basically nullified when slows come into play. They don't even serve the function of "canceling out" the slows applied to them because slows fundamentally are more powerful than an MS boost of the same percentage based on this.
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Sejuani with her passive, defensive masteries, and boots of swiftness, and ancient golems gets something like 50% slow effect reduction, and 35%+ tenacity and I still don't think it's enough to nullify Janna's slow.
|
Yango is biased. He just wants to shitstomp with udyr again
|
|
|
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2013 07:07 obesechicken13 wrote:
You're right about slows overpowering movement speed boosts but that's how the game should be imo.
Why?
Intuitively, a slow and a speed boost of the same percentage canceling each other makes logical sense. From a gameplay perspective, it's clearly not a problem for MS-based champs to get a little bet of help. So why do we need a more convoluted game mechanic when the simple, intuitive one suffices?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
