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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:49 Numy wrote: They don't throw a spanner in anything. 2 out of 115 is not a spanner. That's insignificant. Mandating flash changes nothing and nerfs those two alongside shaco and nasus for literally no reason. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:52 Fusilero wrote: Mandating flash changes nothing and nerfs those two alongside shaco and nasus for literally no reason. Yes that is true but what you said is that they throw a spanner into flash discussion when really they don't. They are exceptions rather than rules so should be treated as such. The quoted solution does nothing I agree. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:49 Numy wrote: They don't throw a spanner in anything. 2 out of 115 is not a spanner. That's insignificant. Never heard this one before. It is small but I don't think that has to do with flash. I think his point is 50 is still a lot of champs even though it's only a small portion of the total champs. I don't quite agree, I wish there was a little more variety, but I don't think every single champ needs to be competitive 100% of the time. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 08 2013 00:46 Kupon3ss wrote: Ghost doesn't have to be strictly better than flash, it just been to be better in certain situations. Honestly, with some of the tempos of the Chinese and Korean teams, just giving Ghost say an 120 second cooldown will make it an actual choice between the two for many champions. (more likely just flash/ghost but the point is you can buff other summoners to easily rival the effectiveness of flash in non-symmetric ways) On October 08 2013 03:46 Fusilero wrote: The problem there is the existence of singed and olaf who in most situations would rather use ghost especially singed who wants that TP or ignite as well. Those two anarchists really do throw a spanner into flash discussion since ghost is better on them. Im coming a bit late to the Summoners discussion, but the plight of Ghost is fairly evident, and it better illustrates how much Riot misunderstands the power of Flash. Characters like Olaf, Singed, Vlad, and Hecarim use or used Ghost really well, and were nerfed fairly hard because of it. Some others like Nasus, Jax, Mundo, Irelia, and Udyr use Ghost pretty well, but not to that level. Many of them also are discouraged in some way to take Ghost. All this happens because Riot looks at a character using Ghost to be doing something, for lack of a better word, unnatural. Olaf and Singed (when he had tenacity) would Ghost-Ult and run where ever they wanted Riot then said things like "what can you do to counterplay a Ghost-Ult Singed/Olaf." I would say very little, but there is much more counterplay to that than facing off against an Amumu/Malphite/Annie/Galio/Lissandra/Sejuani Flash-Ulting you. Thus, I think the most evident problem with Flash, is seen in Ghost-reliant-champs falsely being seen as OP. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
I just don't think there's a downside to Flash, given how strong it is. Most have what I would call "incidental" downsides - Ghost is still running and can be countered by slows/CC, Exhaust can be useless if they jump/Flash away during the duration, Barrier has a relatively short duration, etc - but Flash is just bam done. In any situation where you want to use Flash, there's often no reason not to other than the CD, which still doesn't feel long enough to matter despite the numerous nerfs. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote: I think his point is 50 is still a lot of champs even though it's only a small portion of the total champs. I don't quite agree, I wish there was a little more variety, but I don't think every single champ needs to be competitive 100% of the time. 50+ champions were played in groups at worlds. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote: I think his point is 50 is still a lot of champs even though it's only a small portion of the total champs. I don't quite agree, I wish there was a little more variety, but I don't think every single champ needs to be competitive 100% of the time. It depends what you mean by competitively viable. Any given player can only stay on top form at the absolute highest level on 4-5 champs tops. Any given team cannot make use of all 20-25 champs that their players play when forming teamcomps that suit their playstyle. Different teams will naturally gravitate toward similar playstyles in a particular region simply based on playing each other and learning from one another, which focuses the champ pool into a small set of champs. Even if you had the theoretical "perfectly balanced" version, you still would not see many more champs played than currently simply based on comfort, familiarity, bandwagoning, and a lot of metagame issues that are completely unrelated to the actual game itself. What's more, to the uninformed masses, these issues create the PERCEPTION of imbalance, even where none exists. It takes a top level player with a deep understanding of the game to really separate the perceptions from the truth, and there are very few such players in the world at all (none of whom I'm sure are involved with Riot's balance team). | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote: 50+ champions were played in groups at worlds. Does this include the troll games mineski and TSM played though? | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Quite interested to know how many champs they have and how many are commonly used compared to league. League has tended to sit at around 30 common picks with another 20 uncommon at any given time for the last ~6 months to a year really. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:43 Requizen wrote: This is bait. But I wonder how the game would look if there was only 1 Summoner Spell slot. Having only smite for jungling will be interesting to say the least | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:10 Capped wrote: Out of curiosity, what are the numbers for Dota? How many heroes out of X for TI3 and in overall competitive play? Im way out of the loop with dota, other then the fact i once beastmoded some TLers in an inhouse with lich. Fucking brand ult OP. Quite interested to know how many champs they have and how many are commonly used compared to league. League has tended to sit at around 30 common picks with another 20 uncommon at any given time for the last ~6 months to a year really. TI3 had 13 unbanned/unpicked heroes in a -CM pool of ~95 heroes at the time. As others have stated before, this is not a terribly good comparison though given that TI3 had more games played and the nature of DotA's Captain's Mode having more bans creates more varied picks by forcing them out with the additional bans. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:02 cLutZ wrote: Im coming a bit late to the Summoners discussion, but the plight of Ghost is fairly evident, and it better illustrates how much Riot misunderstands the power of Flash. Characters like Olaf, Singed, Vlad, and Hecarim use or used Ghost really well, and were nerfed fairly hard because of it. Some others like Nasus, Jax, Mundo, Irelia, and Udyr use Ghost pretty well, but not to that level. Many of them also are discouraged in some way to take Ghost. All this happens because Riot looks at a character using Ghost to be doing something, for lack of a better word, unnatural. Olaf and Singed (when he had tenacity) would Ghost-Ult and run where ever they wanted Riot then said things like "what can you do to counterplay a Ghost-Ult Singed/Olaf." I would say very little, but there is much more counterplay to that than facing off against an Amumu/Malphite/Annie/Galio/Lissandra/Sejuani Flash-Ulting you. Thus, I think the most evident problem with Flash, is seen in Ghost-reliant-champs falsely being seen as OP. Jax can E-flash to stun you. Can't Ghost-E with the same reliability, especially as an initiation. That's what I mentioned with Udyr/Renekton/Shen preferring Flash despite Ghost being better for them on paper: even when you already have a gap closer, the instant nature of Flash synergises way better with everything cc or burst (eg. "kill before they flash/dash/barrier"). Apart from Hecarim (for obvious reasons), most champs using Ghost over Flash don't have cc nor bust (or weak ones): Olaf, Shyvana, Vlad etc. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:10 Capped wrote: Out of curiosity, what are the numbers for Dota? How many heroes out of X for TI3 and in overall competitive play? Im way out of the loop with dota, other then the fact i once beastmoded some TLers in an inhouse with lich. Fucking brand ult OP. Quite interested to know how many champs they have and how many are commonly used compared to league. League has tended to sit at around 30 common picks with another 20 uncommon at any given time for the last ~6 months to a year really. I checked it out some time ago but it was something like 85/96. TI3 also had a lot more games played though. Dota also has an infinitely better drafting system that allows for a lot more variety contrary to what riot will tell you | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:11 Nos- wrote: Having only smite for jungling will be interesting to say the least I wonder if that would make counter jungling too strong or too weak. On one hand it's hard to escape if a big scary udyr caught you on the other hand what is his escape plan then. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:17 Fusilero wrote: I wonder if that would make counter jungling too strong or too weak. On one hand it's hard to escape if a big scary udyr caught you on the other hand what is his escape plan then. Maybe everyone will just fp/fb Nunu and chogath LOL. Dat jungle control | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:16 TheYango wrote: Who uses Ghost on Shyvana over Flash? Seen it. The same way you see people go Ghost on Jax over Flash, they're just not the majority. Although most of the time they forgo Flash it's just to take Exhaust instead so... | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On October 08 2013 03:50 red_ wrote: So, change absolutely nothing except for like, Shaco, Eve, Nasus, Olaf, and Singed? It changes the part where people are frustrated by the illusion of choice (Oh, I can choose 2 summoner spells! Oh wait, one of them is practically locked down for me...) by removing the choice (as opposed to the other solutions, which try to remove the illusion) But really what I'm saying is that some of you guys' ideas aren't that good :D | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:18 Nos- wrote: Maybe everyone will just fp/fb Nunu and chogath LOL. Dat jungle control Only over half a year late but the prophecy of the OP nunu has finally come to fruition  | ||
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AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On October 08 2013 04:18 Nos- wrote: Maybe everyone will just fp/fb Nunu and chogath LOL. Dat jungle control It would definitely work like that in solo queue but I feel like jungles would hurt in coordinated teams because whenever people noticed someone in their jungle and collapsed they'd be SUPER dead. | ||
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