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On October 08 2013 00:32 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:26 turdburgler wrote:
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler. Zac initiates, slows in an AOE, and has a revive mechanism for when he blows up.
every time i see zac use his jump to initiate his team spends like 5 seconds just trying to catch up, it never feels like "wow im glad we have a 1500 range jump here". id rather have someone like renekton or jax who can jump in aggressively and actually stun someone. im not saying zac is worthless but even in pro games i struggle to see the value in zac above other tanks.
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I'd prefer if they just removed summoner spells altogether for season 4. Opens up more trap opportunities when anyone can't just freecard flash out and you'd have to mind your positioning much more. A more interesting "solution" for some summoner dependent champions would be to just put those summoners on items.
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Well he's been nerfed now, but go watch a game from 3.10 or whatever patch it was when he was first pick. Even Kiwikid was successful so you know the champ was OP, but it's really easy to see where the powerful multi-stun/engagement/tank potential is valuable. (You'll also see the loloverextend terrible engages that you mention, but that's bad play/teamwork more than bad champion niche).
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On October 08 2013 00:26 turdburgler wrote:
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler.
Closer to a slight knock-back, a knock-up, up to 4 slows (a potential 5th is overlapped with the knock-up) with great base damage and %hp spammable damage too. It's all AoE, with built-in sustain and a revive passive, able to initiate from 1500 range and low cooldowns enhanced by a huge synergy with SV.
Totally what Nasus brings. ._.
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On October 08 2013 00:39 WaesumNinja wrote:
I'd prefer if they just removed summoner spells altogether for season 4. Opens up more trap opportunities when anyone can't just freecard flash out and you'd have to mind your positioning much more. A more interesting "solution" for some summoner dependent champions would be to just put those summoners on items.
I think the trepidation from that comes from "becoming too much like DotA", whereas Summoner Spells are one of the ways that League differentiates itself.
Still, I think some would do well to be moved to items.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
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Na, because that would require Riot to actually think of good item pricing and build paths.
You remember Promote? I mean, it's still in the game, y'know! But who else knows? Banner is never built. Too bad of an item.
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On October 08 2013 00:23 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.
Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever. The troll potential is too damn high. 
I know you were joking but too many people use that excuse. People must stop being so fucking afraid of their own teammates and just play the game. They can add disable help if they want
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On October 08 2013 00:43 Alaric wrote:
Na, because that would require Riot to actually think of good item pricing and build paths.
You remember Promote? I mean, it's still in the game, y'know! But who else knows? Banner is never built. Too bad of an item.
Um excuse me? Banner is hilarious on heimer
On October 08 2013 00:44 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:23 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 08 2013 00:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.
Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever. The troll potential is too damn high. I know you were joking but too many people use that excuse. People must stop being so fucking afraid of their own teammates and just play the game. They can add disable help if they want
Yeah, people pretend that there aren't trolls in Dota too. I think part of it is that Dota probably deals with trolls better with probation queue.
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On October 08 2013 00:16 Alaric wrote:
Had a discussion about this with a DotA guy who was appalled that Flash was still in the game despite being so superior to other summoners for most champions and swearing that it was the mother of all devils and Flash should at least be given for free to each champ, then 2 other summoner spells slots.
My TL;DR to him was "even if you buff Ghost to godly amounts, it won't change anything as long as the speed boost takes 2s to give you what Flash gives instantly. League fights are determined so fast that the instant character of Flash will always make it relevant, be it defensively, or offensively (see Renek, Udyr and Shen taking it over Ghost because it lets them flash-cc people or bypass slows to get in melee range)".
The TL;DR of the TL;DR is "bring back early s3 health-stacking meta for 15+ seconds fights if you want Ghost over Flash ('cept on marksmen)".
Ghost doesn't have to be strictly better than flash, it just been to be better in certain situations. Honestly, with some of the tempos of the Chinese and Korean teams, just giving Ghost say an 120 second cooldown will make it an actual choice between the two for many champions. (more likely just flash/ghost but the point is you can buff other summoners to easily rival the effectiveness of flash in non-symmetric ways)
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I actually don't think banner is all that bad. At least compared to some of the other support items.
If supports had enough gold to be building support items, I think banner would probably be one of the top choices after Shurelya.
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United States47024 Posts
Some of the summoner spells I think would be hard to price given the current cost spread on items. You'd need a more systematic item overhaul to be able to properly price summoner spell items.
Bear in mind that the cost spread on items in DotA is a lot wider. The small items are smaller and the big items are bigger. This gives you more wiggle room in the middle to price non-stat pure utility items (or top-end utility items if you feel the need to put stats on them). With LoL its much harder to find a good point of balance for utility items given how much smaller the spread in item cost is. This also affects the practicality of introducing cost-efficient midgame teamfight or support utility items at low slot-efficiency.
Ultimately, I don't think this is something Riot would change, and I think it's perfectly understandable that they wouldn't. Having a greater spread on item stats would slow down the game a lot, which is not necessarily a good thing given that the average length of a LoL game at around 35-40 minutes pretty much became the standard that other games in the genre strode for.
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On October 08 2013 00:43 Alaric wrote:
Na, because that would require Riot to actually think of good item pricing and build paths.
You remember Promote? I mean, it's still in the game, y'know! But who else knows? Banner is never built. Too bad of an item.
Promote was an ass summoner in the first place, and the stats on Banner are so dumb that no one would buy it even if if was like 500 gold cheaper. Put the active on, say, an alternative build path for Aegis - instead of +100 health, +10% CDR and the shield from Locket, you get resists, +10% CDR, and Promote - and see what happens. Making it build out of a Philo and still have a pricy cost (only ~150g less than Locket), and most of the money in regen stats (lol) makes it a bad item regardless of the active.
People would buy an item that had Flash on it regardless, anyway, there's a marked difference between Flash and Promote as spells in the first place.
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On October 08 2013 00:45 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:43 Alaric wrote:
Na, because that would require Riot to actually think of good item pricing and build paths.
You remember Promote? I mean, it's still in the game, y'know! But who else knows? Banner is never built. Too bad of an item. Um excuse me? Banner is hilarious on heimer Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:44 Numy wrote:On October 08 2013 00:23 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 08 2013 00:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.
Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever. The troll potential is too damn high. I know you were joking but too many people use that excuse. People must stop being so fucking afraid of their own teammates and just play the game. They can add disable help if they want Yeah, people pretend that there aren't trolls in Dota too. I think part of it is that Dota probably deals with trolls better with probation queue.
HEIMER IS NEVER PICKED
And you know that's your fault too.
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On October 08 2013 00:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:45 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 08 2013 00:43 Alaric wrote:
Na, because that would require Riot to actually think of good item pricing and build paths.
You remember Promote? I mean, it's still in the game, y'know! But who else knows? Banner is never built. Too bad of an item. Um excuse me? Banner is hilarious on heimer On October 08 2013 00:44 Numy wrote:On October 08 2013 00:23 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 08 2013 00:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.
Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever. The troll potential is too damn high. I know you were joking but too many people use that excuse. People must stop being so fucking afraid of their own teammates and just play the game. They can add disable help if they want Yeah, people pretend that there aren't trolls in Dota too. I think part of it is that Dota probably deals with trolls better with probation queue. HEIMER IS NEVER PICKED And you know that's your fault too.
My smurf is now named Dong Quixote. I'm only going to play heimer on it now.
Problem solved. Also, silver is hilarious.
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silver is legit skill league, they are only stuck there because of smurfs and trolls.
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On October 08 2013 00:53 turdburgler wrote:
silver is legit skill league, they are only stuck there because of smurfs and trolls.
And dudes only playing Heimer.
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United States47024 Posts
Realistically if they put Fortify on an item that you're heavily discouraged from having multiples of, I think it would be good.
I think Fort was a good one-of summoner, it just 1) wasn't worth a summoner slot, and 2) was really degenerate in multiples.
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On October 08 2013 00:56 TheYango wrote:
Realistically if they put Fortify on an item that you're heavily discouraged from having multiples of, I think it would be good.
I think Fort was a good one-of summoner, it just 1) wasn't worth a summoner slot, and 2) was really degenerate in multiples.
There was a recent post either on reddit or the O-forums about making Ohmwrecker put Fortify on friendly turrets as well as disabling enemy turrets. With some balancing (each turret can only be Fortified once per 30 seconds or whatever), I think it's a decent idea. Probably would need to tweak build path/stats/cost for it to be a truly good buy, but I liked it.
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if they wanted to overhaul summoners i would prefer they added more game changing summoners. if you are going to have 'overpowered' abilities like flash, you want all the other summoners to be just as exciting. i dont think making a turret immune or running faster for some time is as exciting.
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EPT
