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[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 83

Forum Index > LoL General
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Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 07 2013 15:00 GMT
#1641
Flash is still Flash, though. Imba summoners are imba.

Tautological statements are tautological.


I really hope they do something with summoner spells for S4 though. I mean, there was a decent stretch where Heal was super viable (I think we saw it like once at Worlds), Surge was cool in S2, CV used to be a really competitive pick for supports, etc. I'm tired of 10 Flashes, and 1-2 other summoner spells being viable per role.

I mean, balance comes first, the supposed map/jungle overhaul sure, but still.
It's your boy Guzma!
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-07 15:02:16
October 07 2013 15:01 GMT
#1642
On October 07 2013 23:55 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2013 23:31 Clinic wrote:
flash is needed to land ult on priority targets/more people, especially now that he is fully ccable during it


I'm not really seeing this from a theoretical perspective, although I don't claim to be a good Zac player either.

In an ideal scenario you hit 5 with bounces and Exhaust is clearly better.

If Flash allows you to hit 1 extra person, Exhaust is still probably better because the aspd and damage reductions for 2.5 seconds is going to be reducing their ADC's damage output by more than a 1 second knockup is.

If Flash allows you to hit 2 extra people, Flash may win out. Is it really that helpful? I suppose maybe I can see this if the enemy team has like a Vayne who can easily knock you back as soon as you dive in. Hmm. HMM sir.


When Zac is early counterganked with no flash he's much more likely to just be focused and have his passive popped. Flash is a great spell in general from getting you out of sticky situations. By taking exhaust you open yourself up for being killed when your E is still a long CD at early levels, I think it matters less the later the game goes (unless you like getting caught).

On October 08 2013 00:00 Requizen wrote:
Flash is still Flash, though. Imba summoners are imba.

Tautological statements are tautological.


I really hope they do something with summoner spells for S4 though. I mean, there was a decent stretch where Heal was super viable (I think we saw it like once at Worlds), Surge was cool in S2, CV used to be a really competitive pick for supports, etc. I'm tired of 10 Flashes, and 1-2 other summoner spells being viable per role.

I mean, balance comes first, the supposed map/jungle overhaul sure, but still.


Riot would win me over if they tried to eliminate flash from the game.
Hey! How you doin'?
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
October 07 2013 15:03 GMT
#1643
On October 08 2013 00:01 Zdrastochye wrote:

Riot would win me over if they tried to eliminate flash from the game.


... and put in Blink Dagger!!! =p
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
October 07 2013 15:03 GMT
#1644
On October 08 2013 00:00 Requizen wrote:
Flash is still Flash, though. Imba summoners are imba.

Tautological statements are tautological.


I really hope they do something with summoner spells for S4 though. I mean, there was a decent stretch where Heal was super viable (I think we saw it like once at Worlds), Surge was cool in S2, CV used to be a really competitive pick for supports, etc. I'm tired of 10 Flashes, and 1-2 other summoner spells being viable per role.

I mean, balance comes first, the supposed map/jungle overhaul sure, but still.


The thing about Flash is that it looks cool and creates cool, enjoyable to watch gameplay, which the other summoners to large degree just don't do as well.

So I think Riot is pretty okay with Flash being the best summoner (as a general statement)
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 07 2013 15:05 GMT
#1645
On October 08 2013 00:03 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 00:00 Requizen wrote:
Flash is still Flash, though. Imba summoners are imba.

Tautological statements are tautological.


I really hope they do something with summoner spells for S4 though. I mean, there was a decent stretch where Heal was super viable (I think we saw it like once at Worlds), Surge was cool in S2, CV used to be a really competitive pick for supports, etc. I'm tired of 10 Flashes, and 1-2 other summoner spells being viable per role.

I mean, balance comes first, the supposed map/jungle overhaul sure, but still.


The thing about Flash is that it looks cool and creates cool, enjoyable to watch gameplay, which the other summoners to large degree just don't do as well.

So I think Riot is pretty okay with Flash being the best summoner (as a general statement)

I'd be ok if Flash was only in as a "playmaker" spell, in fact I love seeing Flash initiates or super Flash dodges, but honestly I think the toxicity (so to speak) outweighs the cool factor.
It's your boy Guzma!
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
October 07 2013 15:14 GMT
#1646
On October 08 2013 00:03 red_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 00:01 Zdrastochye wrote:

Riot would win me over if they tried to eliminate flash from the game.


... and put in Blink Dagger!!! =p


I wouldn't mind them making it purchasable, a blink item would be pretty cool. Perhaps the same route as the jungle items (tanky, ad, ap), one for each spec with flash included. Some champions really do need flash to be effective (Galio comes to mind) but giving it to everyone (after level 12!) is something that still hasn't sat right with me. Makes the game really safe.
Hey! How you doin'?
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
October 07 2013 15:16 GMT
#1647
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.

Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-07 15:17:14
October 07 2013 15:16 GMT
#1648
Had a discussion about this with a DotA guy who was appalled that Flash was still in the game despite being so superior to other summoners for most champions and swearing that it was the mother of all devils and Flash should at least be given for free to each champ, then 2 other summoner spells slots.

My TL;DR to him was "even if you buff Ghost to godly amounts, it won't change anything as long as the speed boost takes 2s to give you what Flash gives instantly. League fights are determined so fast that the instant character of Flash will always make it relevant, be it defensively, or offensively (see Renek, Udyr and Shen taking it over Ghost because it lets them flash-cc people or bypass slows to get in melee range)".
The TL;DR of the TL;DR is "bring back early s3 health-stacking meta for 15+ seconds fights if you want Ghost over Flash ('cept on marksmen)".
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
October 07 2013 15:19 GMT
#1649
On October 07 2013 20:54 Capped wrote:
Zac is such a solid top. Really hard to lose with him. Combo chunks like a bitch and so easy to farm with him while building full tank


I can tell you whenever I see something like an Elise/J4/Xin/Vi and then a Zac on enemy team and I'm top, I insta-lock Vlad/Nasus. If its Zac top, I've never been more farmed on those champs ever, and (now with his nerfs) Zac is just hopelessly out sustained and pushed out of lane in both those m/u's.
Forever Young
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
October 07 2013 15:23 GMT
#1650
People have been complaining about Flash being too strong for three years. If Flash were removed or heavily nerfed so many champions go from niche to completely unviable (Annie and Galio are major ones that come to mind). You want to run a mid or top laner that doesn't have a built in blink? Too bad. I mean, it's already kind of like that when you think about it and removing Flash would make it even worse.

I don't even want to think about how good Malphite suddenly becomes. Or how much more valuable ADCs with good escape skills become. Flash is fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with having one summoner spell that out classes all the others so long as the second summoner spell slots are more varied.

In mid or top lane you're gonna see Ignite or Teleport about 95% of the time. On an ADC it's Barrier or Cleanse. Supports typically forced to run Exhaust/Flash but it was cool when Heal was viable and it's awesome when you see supports opt for an Ignite instead. It'd be cool if they buffed up or introduced some other spells to make your second summoner more of a strategic choice (sort of like the choice between Ignite or TP, Barrier or Cleanse). But I don't think removing Flash would work and I don't think it needs to be nerfed (pros already fail wall Flashes lol).
AsmodeusXI
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States15536 Posts
October 07 2013 15:23 GMT
#1651
On October 08 2013 00:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I don't actually have any problems with flash. It's just assumed that everyone has it in game, and you play with and deal with it. Yeah, it sucks when you try and focus a team, and everyone barely flashes and gets away, but it works both ways.

Alternatively, I would love to have a Force Staff. That thing is one of my favorite things in any video game ever.


The troll potential is too damn high.
WriterTL > RL. BNet: Asmodeus#1187 - LoL: DJForeclosure - Steam: asmodeusxi | www.n3rddimension.com
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
October 07 2013 15:23 GMT
#1652
On October 08 2013 00:19 sung_moon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2013 20:54 Capped wrote:
Zac is such a solid top. Really hard to lose with him. Combo chunks like a bitch and so easy to farm with him while building full tank


I can tell you whenever I see something like an Elise/J4/Xin/Vi and then a Zac on enemy team and I'm top, I insta-lock Vlad/Nasus. If its Zac top, I've never been more farmed on those champs ever, and (now with his nerfs) Zac is just hopelessly out sustained and pushed out of lane in both those m/u's.


Chalk this up to, a champion who loses lane to certain people who outsustain him, but adds more to a team fight (think Malphite) so is still worth it if his team can combo CCs effectively.
Hey! How you doin'?
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-07 15:26:41
October 07 2013 15:26 GMT
#1653
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 07 2013 15:27 GMT
#1654
On October 08 2013 00:23 overt wrote:
People have been complaining about Flash being too strong for three years. If Flash were removed or heavily nerfed so many champions go from niche to completely unviable (Annie and Galio are major ones that come to mind). You want to run a mid or top laner that doesn't have a built in blink? Too bad. I mean, it's already kind of like that when you think about it and removing Flash would make it even worse.

I don't even want to think about how good Malphite suddenly becomes. Or how much more valuable ADCs with good escape skills become. Flash is fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with having one summoner spell that out classes all the others so long as the second summoner spell slots are more varied.

In mid or top lane you're gonna see Ignite or Teleport about 95% of the time. On an ADC it's Barrier or Cleanse. Supports typically forced to run Exhaust/Flash but it was cool when Heal was viable and it's awesome when you see supports opt for an Ignite instead. It'd be cool if they buffed up or introduced some other spells to make your second summoner more of a strategic choice (sort of like the choice between Ignite or TP, Barrier or Cleanse). But I don't think removing Flash would work and I don't think it needs to be nerfed (pros already fail wall Flashes lol).

Well, at the same time, removing Flash gives an opportunity to nerf high mobility champions and buff low-mobility champions. In the context of the current balance, removing Flash would cause panic and chaos. But that's not to say they can't balance with that in mind.
It's your boy Guzma!
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
October 07 2013 15:28 GMT
#1655
On October 08 2013 00:27 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 00:23 overt wrote:
People have been complaining about Flash being too strong for three years. If Flash were removed or heavily nerfed so many champions go from niche to completely unviable (Annie and Galio are major ones that come to mind). You want to run a mid or top laner that doesn't have a built in blink? Too bad. I mean, it's already kind of like that when you think about it and removing Flash would make it even worse.

I don't even want to think about how good Malphite suddenly becomes. Or how much more valuable ADCs with good escape skills become. Flash is fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with having one summoner spell that out classes all the others so long as the second summoner spell slots are more varied.

In mid or top lane you're gonna see Ignite or Teleport about 95% of the time. On an ADC it's Barrier or Cleanse. Supports typically forced to run Exhaust/Flash but it was cool when Heal was viable and it's awesome when you see supports opt for an Ignite instead. It'd be cool if they buffed up or introduced some other spells to make your second summoner more of a strategic choice (sort of like the choice between Ignite or TP, Barrier or Cleanse). But I don't think removing Flash would work and I don't think it needs to be nerfed (pros already fail wall Flashes lol).

Well, at the same time, removing Flash gives an opportunity to nerf high mobility champions and buff low-mobility champions. In the context of the current balance, removing Flash would cause panic and chaos. But that's not to say they can't balance with that in mind.


I kind of like League of Legends. I don't want them to change the entire game, rebalancing most of the champion pool, just so they can remove Flash... I don't think many players would want that tbh.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
October 07 2013 15:29 GMT
#1656
I think it would be pretty sweet if they tried removing flash while implementing sweeping compensations to the entire champion pool for s4.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
October 07 2013 15:31 GMT
#1657
On October 08 2013 00:26 turdburgler wrote:
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler.


Your wood league is showing.
Hey! How you doin'?
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
October 07 2013 15:31 GMT
#1658
On October 08 2013 00:31 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 00:26 turdburgler wrote:
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler.


Your wood league is showing.


if i wanted someone to defend my adc zac is not my first pick.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
October 07 2013 15:32 GMT
#1659
On October 08 2013 00:26 turdburgler wrote:
how does zac bring more to a team fight than nasus. zac is like yay a knock up. where as nasus is a strong peeler.


Zac initiates, slows in an AOE, and has a revive mechanism for when he blows up.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 07 2013 15:34 GMT
#1660
On October 08 2013 00:28 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 00:27 Requizen wrote:
On October 08 2013 00:23 overt wrote:
People have been complaining about Flash being too strong for three years. If Flash were removed or heavily nerfed so many champions go from niche to completely unviable (Annie and Galio are major ones that come to mind). You want to run a mid or top laner that doesn't have a built in blink? Too bad. I mean, it's already kind of like that when you think about it and removing Flash would make it even worse.

I don't even want to think about how good Malphite suddenly becomes. Or how much more valuable ADCs with good escape skills become. Flash is fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with having one summoner spell that out classes all the others so long as the second summoner spell slots are more varied.

In mid or top lane you're gonna see Ignite or Teleport about 95% of the time. On an ADC it's Barrier or Cleanse. Supports typically forced to run Exhaust/Flash but it was cool when Heal was viable and it's awesome when you see supports opt for an Ignite instead. It'd be cool if they buffed up or introduced some other spells to make your second summoner more of a strategic choice (sort of like the choice between Ignite or TP, Barrier or Cleanse). But I don't think removing Flash would work and I don't think it needs to be nerfed (pros already fail wall Flashes lol).

Well, at the same time, removing Flash gives an opportunity to nerf high mobility champions and buff low-mobility champions. In the context of the current balance, removing Flash would cause panic and chaos. But that's not to say they can't balance with that in mind.


I kind of like League of Legends. I don't want them to change the entire game, rebalancing most of the champion pool, just so they can remove Flash... I don't think many players would want that tbh.

Eeeh, I think you guys are expecting way too much change from Flash removal. Characters that are good will continue being good, characters that are bad because Flash exists will become better, characters that are bad because of mechanics won't change in that regard.

What champions do you think would disappear/jump to the top if Flash was removed? Annie wouldn't disappear, I mean we'd see less style ults, but passive stun and high burst are strong without it. Malphite might come back, but he's already a decent pick and they could balance that by nerfing his ult's damage, range, or cooldown.
It's your boy Guzma!
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