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On October 06 2013 15:31 aurawashere wrote:
When Kat ults she also becomes a stationary target allowing Zed to do whatever he wants and in that case I would imagine that a Zed can 100 to 0 her while Kat cannot but her ult is a significantly shorter CD so just popping it to push him out of lane/chunk him hard then roaming seems viable and she naturally builds tanky [Zhonyas, Hauting, etc] and can push/roam just as well as he can.
I think as Kat you're suppose to just play reactive to Zed's aggression, at least early on. If he tries to go for the level 6 all-in, or BotRK timing, Kat should be able to stave off Zed's aggression.
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Australia18228 Posts
On October 06 2013 15:08 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 15:01 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 06 2013 13:47 Fusilero wrote:On October 06 2013 13:46 sung_moon wrote:
Would I be too crazy to think that the mids I've tend to rely on for SoloQ recently (Vlad/Diana/Liss), all do quite well vs. the popular assassins atm (Zed/Ahri/Fizz/Kass)?
I'm not sure why these champs (specifically Vlad/Liss) aren't picked more often to deal with these ridiculously popular champs atm. Wasn't vlad used by royal to deal with ahri it seemed to work well. Idk why lissandra isn't used more perhaps the niche of utility mids is occupied by orianna. Vlad does well against Zed and Ahri. Fizz otoh pretty much wrecks him. Too much all in too early. I can understand vs Zed how Vlad can just pool after Zed ults to slow Zed and prevent him from amplifying any damage on him. How does Vlad counter Ahri though? Does he just pool every time she tries to land a charm? And what if Ahri just tries to free farm against Vlad? Ahri can probably do it but Zed would need to come into melee range to get every CS. A better counter to Ahri would be someone that can shut her down the way Jax shuts down Zed/Rengar top.
Ahri's dueling/trading isn't that good until level 3/4 and her burst isn't that high, which means Vlad can generally push and bully the lane in the early levels.
Once Vlad gets some Spellvamp, he can just shove the lane with E. Ahri doesn't have enough burst to 1-shot him (because of pool), which allows him to either spellvamp back up and continue shoving, or to counter all-in with RQE and kill/force her out of lane.
From my experience as Ahri, good Vlads are annoying to deal with in lane, but they can't stop you from farming (but they usually outfarm me).
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On October 06 2013 15:05 Fusilero wrote:Well idk I'm just saying what I heard, you know between the essays of why rework kat sucks.
I mean, I guess he can't all in you that well post 6 cus he eats a full channeled ult?
Kat has 825 HP; 34.5 Armor.
Zed has 845 HP; 36.25 Mres; 71 AD (Assuming 1 pt W); 5 Bonus AD
Weak math (no items cus lazy): Zed's lvl 6 burst with 1 auto is 100%AD +1.2 * (6% Max HP+AD+ 155 + 100% Bonus AD + 77 +50% Bonus + 60 + 80% Bonus AD) = 71 + 1.2*424 = 580. That would be reduced to 431.
Kat (W Max) 75+ 110 (x2?) + 60 + 400 = 635 (745?) Reduced to : 466 (546?)
(Q) 155 + 40 + 60 + 400 = 655 (695 if 2 W) > 481 (510).
So, like, before items, Zed can't just all in a Kat. Edit, thats just the maths, Zed has better scaling (sans resets) and more outplayability. So, I think if Zed was actually balanced it would be a decent lane for kat!
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I made a youtube channel and did a quick commentary of one of my Pantheon games from the end of September. The playstyle is similar to the way I play him now. Currently the video is processing, but hopefully it will finish soon.
D1 Panth
I'll add this to Atrioc's post as well.
Quality sux, I'll try to upload them with higher quality in the future. Still new to the whole youtube thing.
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On October 06 2013 15:08 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 15:01 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 06 2013 13:47 Fusilero wrote:On October 06 2013 13:46 sung_moon wrote:
Would I be too crazy to think that the mids I've tend to rely on for SoloQ recently (Vlad/Diana/Liss), all do quite well vs. the popular assassins atm (Zed/Ahri/Fizz/Kass)?
I'm not sure why these champs (specifically Vlad/Liss) aren't picked more often to deal with these ridiculously popular champs atm. Wasn't vlad used by royal to deal with ahri it seemed to work well. Idk why lissandra isn't used more perhaps the niche of utility mids is occupied by orianna. Vlad does well against Zed and Ahri. Fizz otoh pretty much wrecks him. Too much all in too early. I can understand vs Zed how Vlad can just pool after Zed ults to slow Zed and prevent him from amplifying any damage on him. How does Vlad counter Ahri though? Does he just pool every time she tries to land a charm? And what if Ahri just tries to free farm against Vlad? Ahri can probably do it but Zed would need to come into melee range to get every CS. A better counter to Ahri would be someone that can shut her down the way Jax shuts down Zed/Rengar top.
Vlad vs Ahri isn't so much a counter, insomuch as a favorable Vlad matchup in which he can farm well, and outscale heavily (because Vlad's teamfighting=insane AoE dmgz), and Vlad shouldn't really die against Ahri.
EDIT: OR see Inflicted_'s post.
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On October 06 2013 15:43 LoCicero wrote:I made a youtube channel and did a quick commentary of one of my Pantheon games from the end of September. The playstyle is similar to the way I play him now. Currently the video is processing, but hopefully it will finish soon. D1 PanthI'll add this to Atrioc's post as well. Quality sux, I'll try to upload them with higher quality in the future. Still new to the whole youtube thing.
when I saw that first ult onto lux after the TP bot... jesus christ, lol.
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On October 06 2013 15:09 iCanada wrote:
PSA: Blitzcrank Caitlyn is an aweful lane... The only reason to pick blitz is day hard engage. Biggest reason to pick Cait is dat poke. Like lolwut.
Why do people pick that shit in soloqueue...
Because gotta play them op champs. What is a team comp?
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On October 06 2013 14:38 57 Corvette wrote:
I just ban out Kass/zed/fizz and if they pick Ahri I can just go Syndra, otherwise I'l play something like gragas or Swain or AP janna.
You pick Gragas into Ahri?
On October 06 2013 15:08 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 15:01 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 06 2013 13:47 Fusilero wrote:On October 06 2013 13:46 sung_moon wrote:
Would I be too crazy to think that the mids I've tend to rely on for SoloQ recently (Vlad/Diana/Liss), all do quite well vs. the popular assassins atm (Zed/Ahri/Fizz/Kass)?
I'm not sure why these champs (specifically Vlad/Liss) aren't picked more often to deal with these ridiculously popular champs atm. Wasn't vlad used by royal to deal with ahri it seemed to work well. Idk why lissandra isn't used more perhaps the niche of utility mids is occupied by orianna. Vlad does well against Zed and Ahri. Fizz otoh pretty much wrecks him. Too much all in too early. I can understand vs Zed how Vlad can just pool after Zed ults to slow Zed and prevent him from amplifying any damage on him. How does Vlad counter Ahri though? Does he just pool every time she tries to land a charm? And what if Ahri just tries to free farm against Vlad? Ahri can probably do it but Zed would need to come into melee range to get every CS. A better counter to Ahri would be someone that can shut her down the way Jax shuts down Zed/Rengar top.
If Vlad pools at the correct time Zeds death mark won't even apply but his ult will go on CD. Vlad vs Zed is a decent lane for Vlad if he doesn't get behind before first back (Even when Zed can't ult his harass is dumb). Also Ahri can kill Vlad if she lands a charm but if you get hit by a charm as Vlad you fucked up pretty bad.
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On October 06 2013 16:25 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 15:09 iCanada wrote:
PSA: Blitzcrank Caitlyn is an aweful lane... The only reason to pick blitz is day hard engage. Biggest reason to pick Cait is dat poke. Like lolwut.
Why do people pick that shit in soloqueue... Because gotta play them op champs. What is a team comp?
-.-
Its like the stupidest thing in the world. Every time Blitz goes in and pulls support then other lane 2-0's Cait/Blitz.
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Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L
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On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L
Fizz probably needs a CD nerf on playful trickster but Zed is a faceroll champ that does a lot of what Fizz does and is much stronger in lane. Fizz takes a lot of finesse to play, though I'd expect it to receive nerfs in the next couple months too.
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On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L
Eh, I'd say if we are talking strictly I think Fizz is really damn strong too. That being said, Fizz also has to get off the ground. Fizz can be absolutely bodied in lane the way Zed cannot.
Personally that was the hting that always pissed me off about Zed, he was just so safe. No reason not to pick him. You are doing well, fuck yeah huge late game presence. You are doing poorly? Who cares he is impossible to kill and can farm rather easily.
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On October 06 2013 17:03 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L Fizz probably needs a CD nerf on playful trickster but Zed is a faceroll champ that does a lot of what Fizz does and is much stronger in lane. Fizz takes a lot of finesse to play, though I'd expect it to receive nerfs in the next couple months too.
Mmm, I dunno, if it was me I'd probably hit his bleed on W, I feel like it does way too much damage passively. He needs his Playful/Trickster too much.
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On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L
Fizz ult is not very difficult to avoid.
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does anyone know if the exploit is bannable
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On October 06 2013 17:19 Dusty wrote:
does anyone know if the exploit is bannable
As far as I am concerned it better damn well be.
I dunno, it basically cheating the refund system to get a free advantage. Ruins 9 other players game experiences. As far as I am concerned it no different than using some BS inflating HP/AD/AP hack or something.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L
The general consensus on fizz is that he can be shut down well unlike zed who can at worst farm up safely with the range of his Q and W (See matches like royal vs fnatic when whitezz's ori dumpstered xpeke's fizz and he was useless).
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On October 06 2013 17:03 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:56 GTPGlitch wrote:
Just out of curiousity why is it that people talk about zed needing to be nerfed and not fizz?
I mean, I'm a lowly silver noobie, but it seems a bit ridiculosu because I feel like fizz scales way too well and really just needs one kill to absolutely rule the lane :L Fizz probably needs a CD nerf on playful trickster but Zed is a faceroll champ that does a lot of what Fizz does and is much stronger in lane. Fizz takes a lot of finesse to play, though I'd expect it to receive nerfs in the next couple months too.
I agree with this. You can actually put Fizz down in lane and stop his snowball. It's possible to dry up his farm big time, and as long as you and your other lanes are halfway competent you can wreck his roam too.
Zed is a better Fizz. Similar tools, but much much harder to put down in lane and stop him from farming. Too much AoE and energy means he can spam to farm (energy works for him in fights though). I'm sure it's been said many times, but someone with so much single target kill potential shouldn't have so much AoE as well.
Riot did pretty well with the shadow mechanic though. That needs to stay.
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On October 06 2013 16:26 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 14:38 57 Corvette wrote:
I just ban out Kass/zed/fizz and if they pick Ahri I can just go Syndra, otherwise I'l play something like gragas or Swain or AP janna. You pick Gragas into Ahri? Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 15:08 obesechicken13 wrote:On October 06 2013 15:01 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 06 2013 13:47 Fusilero wrote:On October 06 2013 13:46 sung_moon wrote:
Would I be too crazy to think that the mids I've tend to rely on for SoloQ recently (Vlad/Diana/Liss), all do quite well vs. the popular assassins atm (Zed/Ahri/Fizz/Kass)?
I'm not sure why these champs (specifically Vlad/Liss) aren't picked more often to deal with these ridiculously popular champs atm. Wasn't vlad used by royal to deal with ahri it seemed to work well. Idk why lissandra isn't used more perhaps the niche of utility mids is occupied by orianna. Vlad does well against Zed and Ahri. Fizz otoh pretty much wrecks him. Too much all in too early. I can understand vs Zed how Vlad can just pool after Zed ults to slow Zed and prevent him from amplifying any damage on him. How does Vlad counter Ahri though? Does he just pool every time she tries to land a charm? And what if Ahri just tries to free farm against Vlad? Ahri can probably do it but Zed would need to come into melee range to get every CS. A better counter to Ahri would be someone that can shut her down the way Jax shuts down Zed/Rengar top. If Vlad pools at the correct time Zeds death mark won't even apply but his ult will go on CD. Vlad vs Zed is a decent lane for Vlad if he doesn't get behind before first back (Even when Zed can't ult his harass is dumb). Also Ahri can kill Vlad if she lands a charm but if you get hit by a charm as Vlad you fucked up pretty bad.
If Vlad survives until first back, the lane for Zed becomes basically unwinnable after a certain point, because the amount of sustain Vlad has+Armguard (because why not) means Zed will be pushed in/can't really roam, and will get punished with harass if he steps out of line, and Vlad scales far better into late game than Zed.
EDIT: As noted, Fizz can be shut down in laning, unlike Zed who can just spam AoE to farm. If you weaken his safe farming and make it possible to shut him down in laning, he'll be much less First Ban First Pick material.
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if zed was so faceroll and easy then everyone could play it like faker
but hint they cant
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EPT
